Hardness vs Ease of Sharpening & chipping damage

H

Harry6

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May 29, 2022
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In choosing a new chef knife, I'm wondering about the tradeoff between hardness and ease of sharpening.

My ancient Zwilling Pro S is eligible for warranty replacement / upgrade.

I am thinking about either a Miyabi Kaizen II, which uses FC61 steel at Rockwell 61,
or a Zwilling Pro original, which is similar in shape and steel to what I have around Rockwell 57, but without the annoying bolster.
I NEVER use my knife like a cleaver or do any "impact" or momentum based chopping.



I live alone, cook for myself, and have taken a few ultra light strokes on a steel before each use of my old Zwilling.
This keeps the Zwilling pretty sharp.

If I upgrade to a Miyabi Kaizen, I imagine it will take a finer edge and hold it better. On the other hand, I would not be steeling the edge before each use, and I imagine it would be a bit harder to maintain/sharpen, and more susceptible to chipping / damage. I guess I would have to buy a ceramic rod to replace my finely grooved steel.

Considering that I'd steel the Zwilling Pro before every use, in practice would the Miyabi offer any significant use or sharpness advantage?

Would the Miyabi with it's harder FC61 steel be more likely to get chipped in ordinary use?

Other thoughts on the tradeoffs between the use of these two different knives?

Thanks,
Harry
 
To me the main advantage of harder steel is that it can be ground thinner, and thinner is generally better for cutting food.

If you don’t have edge problems now and are careful with your cutting I’d suggest the harder, thinner knife.

And yeah honing steels are generally too soft for high hardness knives, but besides a super fine ceramic rod (good idea) you should consider stropping before each use instead of using the ceramic rod as this will remove more material than is needed for small cooking tasks.

Good luck and let us know what you get!
 
I would choose that Sandvik 13C26 steel over the Krupp 4116 variant.
But, to be honrest I would be looking at Powder Steel knives (R2/SG2/SRS15)
as they are way ahead in edge retention.
 
Well hardness and wear resistance aren't the same thing.
FC61 is said to be AEB-L and it sharpens pretty easily on water stones. It takes a fine edge.
Soft steels can actually be a little frustrating to sharpen, some people fine them mushy.

If you can't abusing your knife, you shouldn't be chipping your knife.
 
I would keep the Zwilling for any rough duty use or where you might encounter bones. I grab a western style knife for slicing bone in ham or ribs for instance. The harder thinner Japanese knifes are more prone to chipping and edge damage. There is a place for both kinds in my kitchen.

Most Japanese knifes will cut circles around your Zwilling, they are thinner ground and sharpened at more acute angles. The Miyabi looks like it has plenty of belly so if you like to rock chop it should work well for you.
I think you will find the thinner, harder steel of Japanese knifes easy to sharpen.

I prefer simple cladded knifes because I thin a little when I sharpen and I don't want to deal with any fancy cladding. I also gravitate toward the simpler carbon steel.
Thats just my personal preference.
 
I'd go with the fc61 steel just to see the difference between the x50cr.... vs the 13c26. From my understanding the two aren't night and day different in edge holding but the later is tougher and can be taken harder making it a little better. I have a Zwilling which I thinned out the edge quite a bit and on occasion find small chips so I wouldn't say it's very tough anyway. Here is an article in regards, if you look at the ratings under stainless you'll see a rating for 1.4116 which i believe is x50cr....

knife-steels-rated-by-a-metallurgist-toughness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance
 
Thank you Scdub, Kenhash,Tokerblue, Ourorboros, Garr3, and P_A_S_1 for your time and insights!

I've reading and carefully thinking about all you have written.
Across the board, I'm struck that there was no love for the Zwilling Pro S with its somewhat softer easy to sharpen 4116 steel.
I sharpen with an Edgepro copy, and with regular steeling my vintage Zwilling gets sharp enough to shave hairs.

I neglected to mention that this would be a warranty exchange / upgrade, so my choices are limited, and I cannot keep the old Zwilling.

The steel in the Miyabi is listed as "FC61", which is purportedly Zwillings rebrand of Sandvik 13C26, and may be similar to AEB-L.

I would imagine, however, that Zwillings heat treatment of whatever steel is involved may make it difficult in practice to anticipate the resultant properties.

The knife steels article cited by P_A_S-_1 is fascinating. If Zwilling / Miyabi FC61 after heat treatment is indeed comparable to AEB-L, then as you wrote, edge retention would be similar to the Zwilling Pro with 4116, but the greater toughness of FC 61 might enable it to hold its edge longer or to hold edge angles a little thinner - which would be great.

I imagine a reasonable expectation is that the Miyabi might not be vastly different in initial sharpness from what I am accustomed to (since after steeling I can shave arm hairs with the Zwilling Pro S that I have). But it looks like the Miyabi would hold that razor edge longer. I would have to also purchase a ceramic hone to replace my finely grooved steel.

Stropping the Miyabi might not work for me because I would then have to wash it to remove the stropping compound.

I have tried using an old belt on a hard surface to strop my paring knife without any compound. My technique was probably off... I get a better edge off the steel - and quickly.

Thanks again!

H
 
Harry6 said:
Thank you Scdub, Kenhash,Tokerblue, Ourorboros, Garr3, and P_A_S_1 for your time and insights!

I've reading and carefully thinking about all you have written.
Across the board, I'm struck that there was no love for the Zwilling Pro S with its somewhat softer easy to sharpen 4116 steel.
I sharpen with an Edgepro copy, and with regular steeling my vintage Zwilling gets sharp enough to shave hairs.

I neglected to mention that this would be a warranty exchange / upgrade, so my choices are limited, and I cannot keep the old Zwilling.

The steel in the Miyabi is listed as "FC61", which is purportedly Zwillings rebrand of Sandvik 13C26, and may be similar to AEB-L.

I would imagine, however, that Zwillings heat treatment of whatever steel is involved may make it difficult in practice to anticipate the resultant properties.

The knife steels article cited by P_A_S-_1 is fascinating. If Zwilling / Miyabi FC61 after heat treatment is indeed comparable to AEB-L, then as you wrote, edge retention would be similar to the Zwilling Pro with 4116, but the greater toughness of FC 61 might enable it to hold its edge longer or to hold edge angles a little thinner - which would be great.

I imagine a reasonable expectation is that the Miyabi might not be vastly different in initial sharpness from what I am accustomed to (since after steeling I can shave arm hairs with the Zwilling Pro S that I have). But it looks like the Miyabi would hold that razor edge longer. I would have to also purchase a ceramic hone to replace my finely grooved steel.

Stropping the Miyabi might not work for me because I would then have to wash it to remove the stropping compound.

I have tried using an old belt on a hard surface to strop my paring knife without any compound. My technique was probably off... I get a better edge off the steel - and quickly.

Thanks again!

H
Click to expand...
The thinner miyabi will cut food easier for the same edge "sharpness". It should be fairly noticeable over the zwilling. 13c27 should no be chippy at 61 RC. It can be run quite a bit harder and is a very tough, fine grained steel
 
FYI, an old school acquaintance who is a retired instructor from the Culinary Institute of America advocates that:
1. Balance and ergonomics matters more then steel among quality knives
2. Matching sharpening practice and use with chef matter more then steel differences.

His likes the Zwilling pro traditional and some Wusties.
His point of view is that since I am used to the balance and handle design of the old Zwilling / French style knife, and since I steel before each use, I am better off sticking with that.

He also suggests that since I don't "rock chop" I can get by with a thinner edge on any knife.

I realize his views are contrary to those expressed here!

Wish I could try both for a couple of weeks :) But that is not how life is.

Thanks again,
Harry
 
scdub said:
To me the main advantage of harder steel is that it can be ground thinner, and thinner is generally better for cutting food.
Click to expand...

Thinner is also better for sharpening, as less material will need to be removed to reestablish an apex. But it really is a six of one, half a dozen of the other proposition, because even a softer steel, ground thin will cut exceptionally well. I think it really comes down to individual maintenance preferences. Harder steel can be ground thin if you are not using it roughly or contacting hard materials like bone, but a tougher less wear resistant steel can do the same. It's all about how often you want to sharpen and with what method.
 
Harry6 said:
FYI, an old school acquaintance who is a retired instructor from the Culinary Institute of America advocates that:
1. Balance and ergonomics matters more then steel among quality knives
2. Matching sharpening practice and use with chef matter more then steel differences.

His likes the Zwilling pro traditional and some Wusties.
His point of view is that since I am used to the balance and handle design of the old Zwilling / French style knife, and since I steel before each use, I am better off sticking with that.

He also suggests that since I don't "rock chop" I can get by with a thinner edge on any knife.

I realize his views are contrary to those expressed here!

Wish I could try both for a couple of weeks :) But that is not how life is.

Thanks again,
Harry
Click to expand...
I think it depends on your priorities.

I’d agree with your friend about sticking with what you know IF you were cooking large volumes of food in a restaurant.

If you aren’t on the clock, something that feels different and slows you down a little isn’t necessarily a deal-breaker imo.

I haven’t done any surveys, but just from casual observation it seems like western chefs tend to cut foods much more quickly than Japanese chefs, and that might mean they’re more prone to accidentally whack the edge on things, and why they prefer more durable knives.

The reason that I think most of the people here suggest a Japanese knife is because it will be more pleasant to cut with.

A very thin, sharp blade will slice through some foods without any downward pressure - and that’s a good feeling that you just can’t get with a thicker knife.
 
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Harry6 said:
FYI, an old school acquaintance who is a retired instructor from the Culinary Institute of America advocates that:
1. Balance and ergonomics matters more then steel among quality knives
2. Matching sharpening practice and use with chef matter more then steel differences.
Click to expand...
I don't entirely disagree, but I see problems with that.
Sticking with what you know prevents you from trying better things - both in terms of steel and design.
As pointed out, you aren't a pro chef. You aren't trying to crank out volume night after night. You can afford time to adjust.
Long - and really shortly after the short term - you are better off using a superior tool. It's not like it's a totally different beast. They are all chef's knives. You aren't learning to fly a helicopter instead of driving a car.

However, I frequent another forum with a lot of pro chefs who switched to J-knives. The feel like they do better with better knives. These guys sharpen - they'll take the better steel and better knife profile every time.
Because no amount of sharpening will overcome a fat blade in a soft steel.
Oh, and people do rock chop with harder, thinner knives too.
It's not like the German knives he likes have tremendous ergonomics and balance either. Guys who can prep boxes and boxes of produce a night don't all love German knives.
So while I think your friend knows a lot, I also think he's trying to defend his preferences.
If he is so confident in his knives, ask to use them for a day. Even just at his place, on some produce and meat.
 
Harry6 said:
In choosing a new chef knife, I'm wondering about the tradeoff between hardness and ease of sharpening.

My ancient Zwilling Pro S is eligible for warranty replacement / upgrade.

I am thinking about either a Miyabi Kaizen II, which uses FC61 steel at Rockwell 61,
or a Zwilling Pro original, which is similar in shape and steel to what I have around Rockwell 57, but without the annoying bolster.
I NEVER use my knife like a cleaver or do any "impact" or momentum based chopping.



I live alone, cook for myself, and have taken a few ultra light strokes on a steel before each use of my old Zwilling.
This keeps the Zwilling pretty sharp.

If I upgrade to a Miyabi Kaizen, I imagine it will take a finer edge and hold it better. On the other hand, I would not be steeling the edge before each use, and I imagine it would be a bit harder to maintain/sharpen, and more susceptible to chipping / damage. I guess I would have to buy a ceramic rod to replace my finely grooved steel.

Considering that I'd steel the Zwilling Pro before every use, in practice would the Miyabi offer any significant use or sharpness advantage?

Would the Miyabi with it's harder FC61 steel be more likely to get chipped in ordinary use?

Other thoughts on the tradeoffs between the use of these two different knives?

Thanks,
Harry
Click to expand...
It might be more likely to chip, FC61 looks like it has a similar composition to AEB-L, so it should still be fairly tough especially if you don't abuse it. As for your friend, I would generally agree, ergonomics, balance, and sharpening are more important then the steel, but that doesn't mean you can't experiment. I am accustomed to the knives I use at work, and using any other knife messes with my technique a little bit initially, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't immediately switch to better knives if I could and although the knives you are used to are already decent that doesn't mean you shouldn't try something new.
 
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You're making it difficult for yourself. Choosing a knife is a very personal decision--and this one should be straightforward. Choose what you know--or choose a little harder.
Why not go where you can set them side by side? I'd guess that if you did, you'd decide almost immediately.
 
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