has anybody here beaten a red light ticket?

A

AmadeusM

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I made a right hand turn on red from one one-way street into another.
There was a no turn on red. There was a camera there (to catch those speeding through the red light), as I found out when I came back through the intersection again.

I was going to make the turn, saw the sign, paused, saw flashing lights in the back (camera flash), thought there was an emergency vehicle coming behind or something, and reacted to get out of the way, i.e. completed the turn.

I am expecting a ticket for 130 bucks in the coming week, but there's also a small chance the camera didn't get my plate as I was coming from a different angle (I was making the turn, and not speeding through the intersection). Here's what I mean: http://shows.implex.tv/Qwikcast/Root/minneapolis/223/preflight.htm
(sample video)

Will a judge buy this? A cop told me that sometimes pleading guilty halves the fine.
Also, what is the standard jail time for something like this (another option).

Thanks.
 
These systems typically take two pictures to show a progression of you actually going through the intersection while the light is red. They need to show your car actually in motion. I've had a few cases where the flashes went but I didn't actually enter the intersection. I got stopped quick enough. So, what the reviewer saw was two pictures of a silver Mercedes sitting behind the line. They throw that case out. I've never heard a word. This happens especially if you come up to the intersection fast and stop suddenly (which a little Mercedes can do, (this thing has awesome brakes)). The system sees you approaching fast and assumes that you're gonna run the light, so it takes the pictures.

(They use a flash even during the day because the background of license plates is highly reflective and the letters are not which gives a very high contrast making the plate very easy to read when you hit it with a bright light like a photo flash.)

If you stopped behind the line but happened to trip the cameras for some reason and then proceeded through the intersection because you saw the flashes and thought it was an emergency vehicle, what they will see when they review the pictures is two pictures of you behind the line, and they'll throw those pictures away. You won't hear a thing.

Otherwise, take the matter to court. Emphesize that you mistook the flashing lights for an emergency vehicle and wanted to get out of the way. You looked to the left and there were clearly no cars coming, so you took the turn to get out of the way of the emergency vehicle. My guess is that the judge will buy that one. A lot of judges don't like these photo red light systems anyway. There are a lot of legal-ethical questions surrounding them.
 
I would like to see the timing between yellow and red standardized by federal law. There are some intersections I pass on the way to work where the light turns yellow, and within a second turns red. Barely enough time to get through the intersection when the light puts you in violation of law. Fortunately there are no cameras at these intersections but situations like this (with short-timing the light change) provides the authorities with a money making opportunity to fleece law-abiding drivers.

Provide for the loss of federal highway funds to states who don't standardize to reasonable light timing.
 
If you enter the intersection when the light is yellow, it is legal to continue through even if the light changes to red as you go.
 
Gollnick said:
If you enter the intersection when the light is yellow, it is legal to continue through even if the light changes to red as you go.
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Almost. Although this may vary from state to state, the purpose of the yellow light is to allow traffic already within an intersection to clear. If you enter an intersection upon the yellow, then it's the same as disreguarding a red light. Prosecutors will often ask a defendant who entered an intersection on the yellow light what color the light was when they were directly underneath it. If you can't answer (which is actually impossible), then the presumption is that the light had already changed to red. Tough to argue.

As to the original question, I would take such a citation to court. Pulling around a corner to clear an intersection for an emergency vehicle sounds like a well-intended reason. The violation occurred, but many traffic court Judges are fairly lenient about such things. Certainly worth a shot. Something like driving school might also be an option. Jail time sounds kind of drastic and I'm not sure many Judges would consider that option for that type of traffic offense, but again, state laws vary. Maybe you won't get any mail at all.

Personally, I've heard rumors within the law enforcement community that some cities are already considering removing the mechanical snitches. Seems there's a possibility that they are actually causing accidents instead of preventing them as drivers overreact to the presence of the cameras. Drivers skidding to a sudden stop, paying attention to the cameras instead of what's in front of them etc. Could be something there.
 
AmadeusM said:
saw flashing lights in the back (camera flash), thought there was an emergency vehicle coming behind or something, and reacted to get out of the way, i.e. completed the turn.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:

"From 1992 to 1996, an estimated 260,000 crashes nationwide resulted from
red-light running, according to an Insurance Institute for Highway Safety
study. About 750 people die each year; 154 of them in California, making
this state's intersections the deadliest.

At busy intersections, studies have shown red lights are run as often as
"every 10 minutes. "This creates a Russian roulette for the driver," Retting
said. "In many cases, running a red light will not have a consequence to
it. But when it does, it can be a catastrophe." "

"An institute study of Oxnard and Fairfax, Va., found both cities saw an
average 40 percent drop in violations a year after red-light cameras were
installed, Retting said."

maximus "Ex-LEO" otter
 
Mudflap said:
Something like driving school might also be an option. Jail time sounds kind of drastic and I'm not sure many Judges would consider that option for that type of traffic offense, but again, state laws vary. Maybe you won't get any mail at all.
Click to expand...

Maybe no mail, but who knows. After all, people who send those out are not exactly intellectual giants or people of reason. Traffic cops, they have a quota to fill each month (from reliable source).
Driving school? I have a CDL. The jail option came up, since I am so irritated by the STUPIDITY of the situation that I considering not paying. Besides, I have never been in jail (or in court for that matter), so maybe I should look at it as a potential fun experience. :D
 
P.S. our comrades from the United Kingdom need to understand that over here we are less receptive to the concept of having a plethora of cameras shoved in every orifice, especially those of us who abide by the law.

:D
 
In all the states in which I drive regularly (OH, MI, WV, PA), entering a intersection on yellow is legal, even if the light changes as you get there. Toledo has red-light cameras, and I have never been ticketed for getting into an intersection on yellow.
 
In Florida it's illegal if the back end of your car is still in the intersection when it turns red. I have yet to encounter any cameraed intersections (as far as I know), but I can tell you that traffic school can actually be a very worthwhile venture. Besides dropping my ticket fine, it gave me a lot of knowledge, but I was genuinely looking to learn from it rather than just sit through it and fill out the booklet required for a diploma. Best of luck in whatever route you choose.
 
digdeep said:
I would like to see the timing between yellow and red standardized by federal law. There are some intersections I pass on the way to work where the light turns yellow, and within a second turns red. Barely enough time to get through the intersection when the light puts you in violation of law. Fortunately there are no cameras at these intersections but situations like this (with short-timing the light change) provides the authorities with a money making opportunity to fleece law-abiding drivers.

Provide for the loss of federal highway funds to states who don't standardize to reasonable light timing.
Click to expand...

The Washington DC traffic department and Lockheed Martin, their partner in bilking the public with their red light cameras, were embarassed when it came to light that they had shortened the duration of the yellow light in an effort to "enhance the effectiveness and return on investment" of the cameras. This shameful dishonesty is probably going on elsewhere too.
 
They were going to install four traffic light cameras here in Cincinnati until one of the local government employees was stupid/honest enough to admit that they were installing them to make revenue instead of promote safety. The doodoo hit the fan in the press, and last I heard they decided not to install them.

The sad thing is that this town could use a few devices to discourage people from driving like they own the roads and everybody else is in their way.
 
I hate those friggin' things.

Here in NY I haven't heard (which certainly doesn't mean it hasn't happened) of fines ever being reduced on those camera summonses.

The reason is that it is a ticket like a parking ticket as opposed to a moving violation. They are issued under a set of rules and regulations, here for example it's the NYC Traffic Regulations, not the Vehicle and Traffic Law that a regular red light would be written under by a police officer. Like a parking ticket, it is issued to the vehicle, as in "owner/operator" not to a specific driver.

When a police officer issues a summons for a red light it has to be given to a person and then the officer is responsible for making the state's prima facie case against that person. Prosecutors in some cases, the officer himself in others, can often "make a deal" with the violator and ammend the charge to make a guilty plea more palatable.

Parkers are normally treated in a more pass/fail manner. If the summons is properly completed and issued, it stands. I have seen the cameras done the same way; with the photo there is little to argue, it doesn't matter who was driving because the vehicle itself is being cited, the responsibility falls on the owner.

I suppose a "federal" case could be made out of it over duration of yellow, etc. and maybe get some traction, but generally if your car is photographed, you're done.
 
Mudflap said:
Although this may vary from state to state, the purpose of the yellow light is to allow traffic already within an intersection to clear.
Click to expand...
Not true. According to the MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, published by the Federal Highway Administration), the yellow light is to warn you that the right-of-way is going to change (light is going to turn red in most cases). What you describe is actually the red clearance interval, or all-red time. Not every city uses all-red time, though.
Section 4D.10 Yellow Change and Red Clearance Intervals
Standard:
A yellow signal indication shall be displayed following every CIRCULAR GREEN or GREEN ARROW signal indication. The exclusive function of the yellow change interval shall be to warn traffic of an impending change in the right-of-way assignment. The duration of a yellow change interval shall be predetermined.
Guidance:
A yellow change interval should have a duration of approximately 3 to 6 seconds. The longer intervals should be reserved for use on approaches with higher speeds.
Option:
The yellow change interval may be followed by a red clearance interval to provide additional time before conflicting traffic movements, including pedestrians, are released.
Click to expand...
The duration of the yellow light depends on the prevailing speed of traffic. If everyone is going 65 MPH, they're going to need more time to stop than at 35 MPH, hence the longer yellow light. A well-designed timing program will also include all-red time, to let those cars caught in the intersection when the light turns red to clear before cross traffic gets the green.
digdeep said:
I would like to see the timing between yellow and red standardized by federal law. There are some intersections I pass on the way to work where the light turns yellow, and within a second turns red. Barely enough time to get through the intersection when the light puts you in violation of law. Fortunately there are no cameras at these intersections but situations like this (with short-timing the light change) provides the authorities with a money making opportunity to fleece law-abiding drivers.

Provide for the loss of federal highway funds to states who don't standardize to reasonable light timing.
Click to expand...
The engineering standards for traffic signal timing are not written into federal law, yet they are widely understood and documented by national transportation agencies. It's the responsibility of individual cities to get their timing right, not the state or federal government. I agree that cities should have some incentive to meet state and national standards for these things.
 
Beaverton, Oregon now has flashing yellows in the cycle too. I have no idea what it means. Any ideas?
 
Gollnick said:
Beaverton, Oregon now has flashing yellows in the cycle too. I have no idea what it means. Any ideas?
Click to expand...

Hurry up .... it's almost time for RED :confused:

David
 
Take the ticket to court and plead your case if you feel that strongly about it. Too often nowadays folks roll over and just plead guilty to save a possible higher fine , where is the justice in that ?

I have a flawless driving record and fully intend to keep it that way , last winter during fog season I ran a red light in a major intersection here and got the flashes too , so I was fur sure that I was busted , I guess the fog helped obscure my liscense plate :D Honestly though it was something I didnt do on purpose , it was night time and foggier than all get out and an accident , had I been caught though I would have a very tough time getting out of it , especially in a city residing in a state strapped for cash.
 
Gollnick said:
Beaverton, Oregon now has flashing yellows in the cycle too. I have no idea what it means. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
Also from the MUTCD:
Section 4D.04 Meaning of Vehicular Signal Indications
D. Flashing signal indications shall have the following meanings:
1. Flashing yellow-When a yellow lens is illuminated with rapid intermittent flashes, vehicular traffic is permitted to proceed through the intersection or past such signal indication only with caution.
Click to expand...
We have flashing yellow beacons here in LA, but only near mid-block crosswalks that require extra visibility (near schools, etc.). I can see how a flashing yellow light at the intersection as part of the regular cycle would be confusing to drivers, which is why it's not done in most cities.

Red light photo enforcement is still very controversial. I heard of a case in San Diego where a judge threw out a bunch of tickets because the cameras went off at the wrong time in the cycle. In LA, the intersections considered for red light cameras must have a history of accidents caused by cars running the red. A lot of smaller cities can afford to install them everywhere and I bet some are motivated more by the extra revenue than public safety.

If you guys think red light cameras are bad, imagine cameras to ticket speeders. I've heard of it in some recent legislative proposals . . .
 
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