Has anyone modded an Emerson to use thinner phospher-bronze washers?

M

Muaddib1116

Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
1,091
I've read about Emerson's reasoning for using the nylatron washers instead of the phospher-bronze washers that most high-end knives use, and I guess it makes sense given the environment Emerson wants his knives to easily survive (although the use of the steel liner opposite the titanium lock-side is confusing). What I'm not so clear on is why they are so thick. They create (what seems to me) an unnecessarily large gap on each side of the blade tang. I've read that some people replace the thick nylatron washers with thinner phospher-bronze washers stacked up. What I'm wondering is if there's any reason not to replace the thick nylatron washers with a single thinner p-b washer on each side and simply grind down the pivot and stand-offs as necessary. Anyone tried this? Anyone have a reason this wouldn't work? Thanks!
 
Don't over-think things. Trust me. The Emerson knife is perfect as is.
rolf
 
Muaddib1116 said:
I've read about Emerson's reasoning for using the nylatron washers instead of the phospher-bronze washers that most high-end knives use, and I guess it makes sense given the environment Emerson wants his knives to easily survive (although the use of the steel liner opposite the titanium lock-side is confusing). What I'm not so clear on is why they are so thick. They create (what seems to me) an unnecessarily large gap on each side of the blade tang. I've read that some people replace the thick nylatron washers with thinner phospher-bronze washers stacked up. What I'm wondering is if there's any reason not to replace the thick nylatron washers with a single thinner p-b washer on each side and simply grind down the pivot and stand-offs as necessary. Anyone tried this? Anyone have a reason this wouldn't work? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Why on earth would you want to do that?

I'll tell you what. The standoffs are .191. The washers plus the blade is .185. That allows for adjustment of your blade tension.

If you try anything larger than the .30 washers you'll run into trouble. If you try anything less than the .30 washers you'll run into trouble.

Don't try to re-invent the wheel. You will not make it better than it is.

Of course this is all my opinion and you can certainly grind down and resize your knife any way you like.
 
1) It'll void your warranty.
2) That's the way Ernie designed it.
3) If you don't care about your warranty then grind away. Just know that it'll effect the entire geometry of the knife and you'll have to modify not just the pivot, but the standoffs as well. Not to mention you'll have to grind down the stop pin and all of your screws since the distance will be shorter all the way around.

Basically it's like lowering your car and not expecting to get it realigned. If you modify one thing it affects everything else. I would also assume that if you made that gap any smaller the blade might scratch or hit up against the liners every time you open and close it.

Do what you want, it's your knife.

If you do go through with post pics!!! :)
 
It's a liner lock. If you change the relationship between the blade and the liner, you will affect the lockup geometry. Without doing the math, can't tell you how much, but it will change somewhat. If you do decide to do it, you should make sure you are able to measure things properly (have a micrometer), and be able to modify the parts involved and maintain parallelism. Also realize that by reducing the gap between the blade and liners, you are increasing the tolerances required to maintaing a smoothly functioning knife. You are in effect having to remake the knife to higher tolerances than it was originally designed. I wouldn't consider this trivial. Fun? yes. Trivial? no.
 
Lycosa said:
The Emerson knife is perfect as is.
Click to expand...

100% agree!! Don't try to fix what isn't broken. If you want PB washers, get a ZT or other knife. Emersons are tools, made in a specific way. They don't claim to be anything they aren't, and they don't mess with what works.
 
EmersonREP said:
1) It'll void your warranty.
Click to expand...
Haha, yeah, I figured. But since I'm planning on getting the blade re-ground anyways, I figured that's a moot point.

2) That's the way Ernie designed it.
Click to expand...
Well sure.

3) If you don't care about your warranty then grind away. Just know that it'll effect the entire geometry of the knife and you'll have to modify not just the pivot, but the standoffs as well. Not to mention you'll have to grind down the stop pin and all of your screws since the distance will be shorter all the way around.
Click to expand...
I was sure that it would require shortening the pivot, standoffs, screws, and stop pin, but all that shouldn't be that hard. I just realized though, that the steel detent ball on the SS liner, and the steel ball on the lock bar stick out quite a bit more than most frame-lock/liner-locks that I have, which require that extra space that the thick washers provide. That would be difficult to adjust for. As far as affecting the entire geometry of the knife, I'm not so sure about that. At most, it would affect the angle of the lock-bar face with the tang, and perhaps require some tweaking, but considering how sticky the lock came and how much break-in adjustment it's needed, that's not a big hassle from the default anyways. But again, I'm thinking the height of the detent balls is going to be the main reason I don't attempt this.

DrFish said:
It's a liner lock. If you change the relationship between the blade and the liner, you will affect the lockup geometry. Without doing the math, can't tell you how much, but it will change somewhat. If you do decide to do it, you should make sure you are able to measure things properly (have a micrometer), and be able to modify the parts involved and maintain parallelism. Also realize that by reducing the gap between the blade and liners, you are increasing the tolerances required to maintaining a smoothly functioning knife. You are in effect having to remake the knife to higher tolerances than it was originally designed. I wouldn't consider this trivial. Fun? yes. Trivial? no.
Click to expand...
See above for my thoughts on the lockup geometry. I never said it would be a trivial change. I was mostly curious as to why the washers are so much thicker than on any other knife I've seen, and what would prevent someone from modifying it. Now I think that the larger gap is a requirement for how high the detent balls are set.

Anyways, thanks guys for your on-topic responses!
 
Muaddib1116 said:
See above for my thoughts on the lockup geometry. I never said it would be a trivial change. I was mostly curious as to why the washers are so much thicker than on any other knife I've seen, and what would prevent someone from modifying it. Now I think that the larger gap is a requirement for how high the detent balls are set.
Click to expand...

I'd say it's the other way around. The detent balls are set high because of the thicker washers and larger gap, not the other way around. The larger gap and thicker washers are likely a conscious design choice. Thicker washers are less likely to deform. Nylatron is self lubricating and will not have galvanic corrosion issues between dissimilar metals in salt water environments. The larger gap means more space for parts to move.

Think of the difference between the M-16 and the AK-47. The M-16 was a fine weapon with fine tolerances that worked great until you dunked it into the muck and carried it around in the swamp and jungle for a while. The AK-47 was designed purposely to work with looser tolerances and debris.
 
DrFish said:
I'd say it's the other way around. The detent balls are set high because of the thicker washers and larger gap, not the other way around. The larger gap and thicker washers are likely a conscious design choice. Thicker washers are less likely to deform. Nylatron is self lubricating and will not have galvanic corrosion issues between dissimilar metals in salt water environments. The larger gap means more space for parts to move.

Think of the difference between the M-16 and the AK-47. The M-16 was a fine weapon with fine tolerances that worked great until you dunked it into the muck and carried it around in the swamp and jungle for a while. The AK-47 was designed purposely to work with looser tolerances and debris.
Click to expand...
Good points. Given the stated design intent of Emerson knives, I think you're right in identifying which is cause and which is effect. But, in terms of modifying the knife to have a slimmer gap with thinner washers, the high set of the detent balls would be the limiting factor for me. I like your analogy. It's a good illustration of where the priorities are for Emerson knives.
 
The nylatron washers are about .30 thick. I think there are some PB washers that are .15 thick. You can double them up on each side to make it work. I honestly don't understand why people want/need a smoother pivoting knife. It's only pivoting when you open/close it, not when you use it. Just my opinion.
 
EmersonREP said:
The nylatron washers are about .30 thick. I think there are some PB washers that are .15 thick. You can double them up on each side to make it work. I honestly don't understand why people want/need a smoother pivoting knife. It's only pivoting when you open/close it, not when you use it. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I did see that as an option from a different thread. It's something I might try out. Personally (and at the risk of being too honest), I spend more time playing with my knives (opening and closing them) than I do cutting with them, and I love a smooth pivot. Maybe that means I don't need a knife like an Emerson, but that's not how I see it. Using DrFish's analogy, I'm sure there are people out there with pimped out, fine tuned, modded AK-47's that perhaps lack some of the raw utility that they had when stock. I bought the Mini A-100 because I love the handle/blade shape and design, but I bought it knowing (some of) the rough F&F that Emerson's are known to have, with the intent of modding it to my personal standards (if possible). Since I don't really foresee needing the corrosion resistance of the nylatron washers, I don't see a problem for myself if I switch them with PB washers.
 
My Mini A100 is one of the smoothest knives I own; even with those Nylatron washers. Go figure :)
 
I've even gone so far as to switch out PB washers for Nylatron washers in some of my other knives like my ZT550, Kershaw JYD, Spyderco Valloton, Lum Chinese, and a few more. Once broken in, they impart a hydraulic feel to the action, hard to explain. They're slicker than snot though.
 
i might put half a drop of tuf-glide in the pivot path, but nothing for the washers.
 
fwiw- When I got my HD7 back from EKI, the action was a little tight, on purpose, and within a week, my folder was so smooth.
See, this happens all by it's self.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top