has anyone used anti scale powder on O1 in heat treat furnance?

Bradley Lee

Bradley Lee

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May 8, 2014
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I have a O1 1/4 x 4 X 18 bar --- going to grind out a parang machete when I get the even heat furnace. Should I use the anti-scale powder?
 
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I understand that the antiscale powder indeed shines for your application. It allows to bring the pre-ht carbon steel blade to high grit finish, preventing the ht to ruin it and decarb the blade.
After ht just wash the blade with hot water and soap to remove the powder.
If you don't use the antiscale you'll have to sand scale and decarb after ht.
 
I agree - it may as well be that anti-scale coatings were meant for O1. Works great!
 
I would use the liquid rather than the powder. if you get blobs of the powder on your blade, it can cause pitting. With either of them, you need to have a clean, degreased bald. If you have oil, etc, on the blade with the liquid stuff, you will know as it will try to "bead up" on you like rain on a treated windshield.
 
jdm61 said:
I would use the liquid rather than the powder. if you get blobs of the powder on your blade, it can cause pitting. With either of them, you need to have a clean, degreased bald. If you have oil, etc, on the blade with the liquid stuff, you will know as it will try to "bead up" on you like rain on a treated windshield.
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Will it have any issues with the fire bricks and such?
 
jdm61 said:
I would use the liquid rather than the powder. if you get blobs of the powder on your blade, it can cause pitting. With either of them, you need to have a clean, degreased bald. If you have oil, etc, on the blade with the liquid stuff, you will know as it will try to "bead up" on you like rain on a treated windshield.
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I just started doing this on my last batch of 01 blades, but I just used some derby 3000 refractory mortar (it's what I have on hand, may not be optimal). I had this exact problem with beading because I didn't wipe all the oil off first...:o However, it definitely made for a much easier post HT clean up, even with the slight pitting from uneven coverage. I'll be using that method from here on out, and most of the cement pops off quite easily after the quench. I would rather spend 5 mins coating a blade than 5 mins grinding decarb, that's for certain.

Justin
 
here in italy i have hard time getting the antiscale stuff... i've yet to find a supplier willing to ship to italy.
Meanwhile i also had promising results with black furnace cement in a thin wash.
Be aware that one thing is scaling, but decarburation may happen the same both with the furnace cement and the antiscale compound, expecially if the coating is somewhat uneven. Of course if the coating is done well, the antiscale compound should prevent a big deal of decarburation and total antiscale protection.
 
I've been pondering coatings myself. I get hung up with quench contamination, tho. The particulate from the coatings comes off when quenched. Occasionally only some of the coating will come off during quench. Sometimes a bit more of the coating comes off. It does settle at the bottom of the tank, and the oil is still "clear". I've heard that if the oil is still "clear", so to speak, it is not a problem. Still, I hesitate to use coatings because of this reason. I think I'm being over cautious here...to a fault maybe.
 
samuraistuart said:
I've been pondering coatings myself. I get hung up with quench contamination, tho. The particulate from the coatings comes off when quenched. Occasionally only some of the coating will come off during quench. Sometimes a bit more of the coating comes off. It does settle at the bottom of the tank, and the oil is still "clear". I've heard that if the oil is still "clear", so to speak, it is not a problem. Still, I hesitate to use coatings because of this reason. I think I'm being over cautious here...to a fault maybe.
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With the liquid coatings at least, once it dries out on the blade it is like concrete almost. Most of it stays in larger clumps when it pops off. If I really felt the need I'm sure I could sift out the particulates from the quench tank intermittently with no problem. I'm only using canola oil, so the price and availability is an obvious non issue, but I'll be doing the same process when I get more expensive commercial quenchant so the point is moot in my regards. I wouldn't know about the powder contaminating anything because I've never used it, so YMMV on that one.

Justin
 
jdm61 said:
I would use the liquid rather than the powder. if you get blobs of the powder on your blade, it can cause pitting. With either of them, you need to have a clean, degreased bald. If you have oil, etc, on the blade with the liquid stuff, you will know as it will try to "bead up" on you like rain on a treated windshield.
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What is the name of the liquid anti-scale so I can find some?
 
One note... The ATP products won't stay on through thermal cycling, so if you're planning on doing a series of normalizing/grain refining heats, this is likely not going to work for you. Every time I tried it, the coating flaked off while it was sitting outside of the kiln cooling. Otherwise, it's much easier to use and cleaner than PBC Antiscale - but PBC will hold up to repeated thermal cycles. Can't have it all, I guess!
 
Matthew Gregory said:
One note... The ATP products won't stay on through thermal cycling, so if you're planning on doing a series of normalizing/grain refining heats, this is likely not going to work for you. Every time I tried it, the coating flaked off while it was sitting outside of the kiln cooling. Otherwise, it's much easier to use and cleaner than PBC Antiscale - but PBC will hold up to repeated thermal cycles. Can't have it all, I guess!
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If I am doing thermal cycles in the oven, typically "sub critical anneal" or stress relief cycles, I use foil for those.
 
Can SS foil be used during the normalizing of carbon steel and then the same envelope be used for the subsequent two or three thermal cycles? As in, can it be re-used a few times? Seems like I remember it to be used only once, but I think that is in reference to heat treating stainless, at those higher temps. So expensive
 
samuraistuart said:
Can SS foil be used during the normalizing of carbon steel and then the same envelope be used for the subsequent two or three thermal cycles? As in, can it be re-used a few times? Seems like I remember it to be used only once, but I think that is in reference to heat treating stainless, at those higher temps. So expensive
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I would not try it if you are running up against the maximize operating temp of the foil. You might be able to resuse the high temp foil made for stainless if you are doing carbon steel. Hell, I have used the lower temp stuff as an envelope for forge welding a "Ferry flip" damascus billet, but by the time it got up to heat for the second welding pass, it pretty much disintegrated into big flakes when I pressed it.
 
Matthew Gregory said:
One note... The ATP products won't stay on through thermal cycling, so if you're planning on doing a series of normalizing/grain refining heats, this is likely not going to work for you. Every time I tried it, the coating flaked off while it was sitting outside of the kiln cooling. Otherwise, it's much easier to use and cleaner than PBC Antiscale - but PBC will hold up to repeated thermal cycles. Can't have it all, I guess!
Click to expand...

ATP is the liquid and PBC the powder form of anti-scale?
 
Matthew Gregory said:
One note... The ATP products won't stay on through thermal cycling, so if you're planning on doing a series of normalizing/grain refining heats, this is likely not going to work for you. Every time I tried it, the coating flaked off while it was sitting outside of the kiln cooling. Otherwise, it's much easier to use and cleaner than PBC Antiscale - but PBC will hold up to repeated thermal cycles. Can't have it all, I guess!
Click to expand...

repeated thermal cycles is a new idea too me tell me more, please.
 
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