Have a question about concrete for my shop.

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Nov 19, 2004
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My dad came over today and we were talking today about the best way to level concrete for the slab. Neither one of us have had much experience working with it other than pouring floors for haysheds which is not a precision operation. I want to get a nice even and smooth floor but am not sure what would be the best method other than hiring professionals which I checked into but that would take half my budget. Any suggestions?

I know some of you guys out there have some been there done that experience. Please give me some advice.

Oh by the way I got two sides of the forms done today and will finish the rest tomorrow. I am about half a day behind on my schedule but better behind with quality work than ahead with below par work.

Thanks in advance for your help guys.

Steve
 
You need to make a water level. They are easy, cheap and very accurate.
This link explains it better than I can http://www.factsfacts.com/MyHomeRepair/WaterLevel.htm

One summer I worked construction doing concrete, for big jobs we used the transom, for little jobs it was quicker to use a water level than to even get the transom set up.

Once you have your concrete forms set up, use the water level to get your marks on your measuring sticks (the actual water level doesn't matter, you measure up or down from the marks) and then use string lines to set your forms. Good luck.
 
You need to at least get your hands on the right tools.
Be sure to wet the ground where your pouring so it doest suck moisture out of the concrete.
Have a 2X4 there to strike it off level first. Have each end laying on top of the form and work it back and forth with a sawing motion as you push it forward across the concrete. You should have enough concrete down that its pushing a little extra along in front of it to fill in any low places. Thats the biggest step to getting it flat is to have enough there to fill your form and strike it off. A good rule of thumb is to figure out how many cubic yards you need and add 10%.
After you strike it off level, you need a bull float. Thats something you should be able to rent at a home improvement store. This will smooth it up and level it off more.
If your doing a large section and don't plan on sawing it later, you should put a control joint in at this point. They make a tool that you just push across by hand and cut a groove about 1/4 the thickness of the slab.
Next you have to wait for the bleed water to evaporate. Then you can start with a wood or magnesium float and work on finishing the concrete and imbedding the aggregate under the surface. After using the float you can either use a trowel to get a really smooth finish, or you could broom it.
I like a broom finish for traction, but it does hold dirt and make it harder to clean.
All this is easier said than done (I'm taking a class on concrete right now :D ). Really takes experience to be real good at it. If you've got a buddy with some experience pouring concrete, I'd suggest buying a few extra beers and getting him to help :D
 
Steve I was in construction for over 30 years, 15 of those years as a concrete foreman. Depending on the size of the slab and if its going to be barring ( have the building sitting on it) around outside edges will make a difference. If its just a slab in an already exsisting building then your fine with just pouring on top the exsisting base, but if it is going to be barring around the outside then you need to dig down and make the outside perimeter (10-12" wide) deeper for strength and frost protection. How big is the slab? will it be barring? Do you live in an area that has cold winters with deep ground frost? Frost can and will move and heave a slab over time if its severe.
As for pouring the slab, set your forums to where you can pull your screet board across the top and don't try to pull to much at once. if your slabs 20 feet wide set a screet form right down the center so you only have to pull 10 feet of screet board at a time, pour down one side and then come back and pour the other, after you have the 2 sides laid down, pull the center screeting form board, wade in where it was and fill with extra concrete. You really don't need to do the sawing motion thing with the screet board, just lay it back a little and make sure you get the section pulled flat before moving on, once you get it laid down, grab the bull float like matt said and float it down, this will push the rock down some and bring up a layer of creamy grout, once this is done, and believe me you can do a whole lot of damage to you flatness with a bull float if you don't know what your doing. Let it stand and cure, when its stiff enough to support your wieght and not sink in over 1/8"-1/4", grab your knee boards, hand float and finish trowel and get going. 1 person can work the out side edges, reaching in as far as possible without getting on the slab, the other or others, depending on the slab size ( if its a real big slab ,rent a power trowel) can start down the center floating and troweling. Once you've gone over it once, let it harden up to where its just slimmy on top and doesn't stick to you knee boards and go over it again with just the finish trowel, this will make it slick and easy to sweep. Sometimes its easier to let someone that has the experience do the job, it might cost a little more but it can actually be cheaper in the long run. Concrete work doesn't take a rocket science mentality, matter of fact a weak mind and a strong back are better for the job, but once its laid down and hardened, there's no changing it without a jack hammer. If I can answer any questions I'll sure do my best, but I will be gone until late this evening.

Good Luck,

Bill
 
Hire a Pro,I,ve poured several floors in the past myself to save money and did a fairly good job but was never really satisfied, just remember the concrete will last a lifetime and you will have to live with it and sweep it, quite often the beer trick works well, good luck.
 
Good advice but be sure to lay 6-mill plastic down over the bare ground under the slab and over lap the edges about 6 inches. It will keep the slab from wicking water from the ground.

You may never need it but.. It is worth the few $$ more.
 
The prep work for concrete goes as follows:

Shoot your elevations with a transit. Pound in a benchmark stake somewhere out of the way, but where you can see it with the transit, and mark it with your elevations ...grade, gravel line, sand line, and finished floor (this is in case you need to move your transit, or it gets bumped) .You can rent a transit at an equipment rental place, or buy one ...a decent basic transit can be purchased new for $200 or so.

Dig down to hard pack soil as a base, or compact your fill with a tamper or plate vibrator, whichever applies.

Set up your form boards, checking them with the transit. Use masons line to string line them straight. Add some slope if its outdoors (or indoors if you like) ...1/16" - 1/8" per lineal foot is sufficient. Brace the hell out of the forms with stakes, one every 2 - 3 feet minimum is needed to assure that the forms don't bow or blow out. The more the better. Each stake holding the forms should have a 45 degree diagonal stake. Check the entire perimeter of the forms with the transit to assure they are accurate ...adjusting as needed (it doesn't hurt to leave them 1/8" or 1/4" high until you're done with the sitework ..gravel, sand, rebar, etc ...then tap them down ..this prevents the forms from getting knocked too low during the site prep.)
If you're pouring up to an existing vertical surface, such as a wall, then snap chalk lines for each level ...finished floor, sand, gravel, grade. This will let you know exactly where you are when doing each stage of the site work, as opposed to measuring down from the finished floor line all the time.
Use asphalt impregnated expansion board against such surfaces, and between the sections of a larger slab. It also doesn't hurt to attach a 2x4 against any vertical surface for the screed board to ride on. Attach it with the bottom flush with the finished floor line of the concrete, and the screed board gets 'ears' put on it to enable it to ride on this board.

Fill with 4" - 6" compacted gravel base, then vapor barrier, then 3" - 4" sand. Anything going under the slab such as plumbing/electrical lines is installed in the sand layer. Wrap all under slab pipes in batt insulation if they aren't completely covered by the sand, and tape with duct tape ...especially where they come up thru the slab. This prevents the concrete from touching and eventually breaking the lines. If you're putting in a toilet or other drain, then build a small box form the thickness of the slab to surround the line where it comes to the surface and backfill it with sand.

Next goes any reinforcing such as rebar/wire mesh. Use the little adobe blocks to hold the rebar up out of the sand.

Just prior to pouring, hose down the entire works. As someone else said, this keeps the moisture from being sucked out of the concrete too fast.
Use a long straight piece of 2x4 or 2x6 as a screed board to initially level the concrete as you pour, using the tops of the forms as a guide. It helps to cut off the tops of the support stakes prior to pouring so they don't interfere with the screed board. If your slab is too wide for the screed board to reach across, then you need to install a temporary screed form at midspan. Metal stakes work great for these. If it's a big slab you should be pouring it in sections anyways ...alternating sections on separate days. And don't forget the asphalt impregnated expansion board between sections ...1/2" thickness works fine.
Pull the wire mesh up off the sand and into the lower 1/3rd to middle of the concrete as you pour, making sure it stays well below the surface. Work the screed board back and forth, filling in or removing concrete with a shovel as you go. It helps to have at least three people doing this ...one on each end of the screed board, and a third person working the shovel. Yank any midspan screed forms as you go

After screeding, you'll use a bull float on a long pole to smooth the cement. As it dries you'll use the finishing floats. Do the edges by hand with hand trowels. As it hardens you can get out on it and work it by hand using knee boards to work off of.
When you're satisfied with it, then give it the final finish ...broom finish, whatever ...and spray it with a hardener if you like.
That's pretty much all there is to it ...the majority of the job is in the prep work. You work fast when pouring ...then sit around for hours and babysit the slab as it hardens, periodically finishing it. At this point you should have some beer handy, as it's boring as hell.
 
I've done a fair bit of DIY concrete work, both new slabs and pouring over existing broken/cracked/just plain grotty concrete and whats been said above pretty much covers it. Only comment I have is if it's a hot or dry day is to keep it moistened for a while with a garden sprinkler, drying out too fast isn't the best for concrete, but this will depend on your own humidity or temps.
 
I agree with Allan, get some professional help, bribe with knives. Remember it can be a joy to glide across or a stumbling block forever.
 
Thanks for all the advice I really appreciate the time you guys took to type in your advice. :) I will add some more reinforcements tomorrow as it makes good sense guess you can never have enough when it comes to concrete. The plot I choose was very level as it only sloped 1" from front to back and 1" from side to side. I live in the bottom of a valley so under neath 2" of topsoil is a layer of hardpack rock and clay. It makes a great base for foundations but it makes growing a garden suck. I got the forms in today and the gravel in place. I am planning a pour on Saturday so I can get as many family members as I can find to help. We will see how it goes. With the advice I have and the help it should go fine. Come to think of it I am probably alot stronger than I am smart so it should be a peice of cake! :D :D :D
 
Steve, there is lots of good info here, but if you don't have any experienced finishers on hand I would recomend you only pour half at a time. You could place a "keyway" betweed the slabs by using 2x2's or buying metal keyway. Out west we usually use a power screed or use 2x4 as stated above then, for interior slabs, tamp it with a "Jitterbug" before bullfloating. That will push down the rocks and give you a better finish. Good luck, I've poured lots of slabs and can tell you it's a lot easier with experienced help. :eek:
 
As far as the garden goes... build a raised bed, a bunch of old railway sleepers work great, and it also means you don't have to lean as far to weed them or to pick the flowers/veges for the ball and chain.
 
Lot of good advice, only thing I can add is to pour as dry as the truck can. Most drivers like to add to much water if you let them. A vibrator works wonders to settle out concrete.
 
The pour turned out great and I took you guys advice and poured half at a time. The first batch was wet which was easier to work but it didnt have as smooth of a finish as the drier batch did. But man the dry stuff worked us to death. Everything went great. I even have a memento pressed into the concrete. My three year old son decided to walk across it to see what daddy was doin' when I was troweling. They were too cute to remove so there you go. Now I have all the walls framed and tomorrow we will start placing trusses. Thanks for all the advice it worked out well!
 
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