Have steels reached the limit of useful wear resistance?

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Dec 18, 2009
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I'm starting to think with oh my god amazing wear resistant steels like ZDP-189 and S90V that it's no longer worth it to go beyond those steels as going further would make it impossible to sharpen day to day. S30V is barely tolerable as it already is for sharpening with bench stones. S90V and ZDP-189 for most of us is relegated to belt sanders and grinding wheels as it would take a literal near eternity to get back a factory edge. But these steels are getting so wear resistant that the ways we sharpen the steels are no longer becoming adequate. Unless there is new developments in home sharpening knives with newer materials to grind off more steel than before, it's becoming irritating to own knives with wear resistance higher than S30V.
 
Diamonds make short work of every steel I have come across including the ones you mentioned. I have a coarse diamond that I cut down for my edge pro and it will rebevel a knife fairly quickly. It takes about 15 minutes to take a blade down, around 20 degrees inclusive, to the point it is time to change stones to start working through the progressive EP grits.

I think as long as they can keep improving and making them hold an edge longer without chipping excessively people will want and buy them.
 
With diamonds I actually think its easier to sharpen S90V than S30V. For ZDP you should try waterstones, they seem to work the best for that steel.


And yes, I do believe practical wear resistance has reached a high point but if you have the right tools for the given steel and sharpen correctly and have care in the use of your tool the steel will show its true benefits.
 
I'm starting to think with oh my god amazing wear resistant steels like ZDP-189 and S90V that it's no longer worth it to go beyond those steels as going further would make it impossible to sharpen day to day. S30V is barely tolerable as it already is for sharpening with bench stones. S90V and ZDP-189 for most of us is relegated to belt sanders and grinding wheels as it would take a literal near eternity to get back a factory edge. But these steels are getting so wear resistant that the ways we sharpen the steels are no longer becoming adequate. Unless there is new developments in home sharpening knives with newer materials to grind off more steel than before, it's becoming irritating to own knives with wear resistance higher than S30V.
I've never found any of the steels you mentioned very hard to sharpen - except for S30V, I don't think it takes a good edge, at least the knives I've had. But ZDP, S90V, CPM 10V, D2, they are all pretty easy to sharpen with diamond and ceramic hones. Having the right geometry helps a great deal also.

It's the super-soft steels with a burr a mile long that I find hard to sharpen...

I don't know what is beyond the horizon for edge retention, but none of these steels are nearly as hard as a diamond, my dmt's chew them up pretty good! :thumbup:
 
Grinders with ceramic belts will kick a 40+ degree bevel's ass into the proper shape in about two minutes, I don't care what steel or at what hardness. My $119.99 Delta 1X42 has worked on literally hundreds of knives, axes and machetes over the years and never missed a beat. Not what you want to use for maintaining an edge, of course, but hard to beat for getting the grunt work of reprofiling out of the way. A lot easier on your elbows, too...
 
Use the right length stone. The most common 8" size is an aberration from days past that needs to die. My 11" Nortons blast through ZDP like it's nothing.
 
I'm starting to think with oh my god amazing wear resistant steels like ZDP-189 and S90V that it's no longer worth it to go beyond those steels as going further would make it impossible to sharpen day to day. S30V is barely tolerable as it already is for sharpening with bench stones. S90V and ZDP-189 for most of us is relegated to belt sanders and grinding wheels as it would take a literal near eternity to get back a factory edge. But these steels are getting so wear resistant that the ways we sharpen the steels are no longer becoming adequate. Unless there is new developments in home sharpening knives with newer materials to grind off more steel than before, it's becoming irritating to own knives with wear resistance higher than S30V.
I think you've made a good point there. The ease of sharpening depends on the equipment you're using and diamond should the one for the high-alloy steels. I don't know if there's a boundary for alloys in a PM steel, but when I think of CPM S110V and 125V it seems unlikely that the bar can't be raised any higher. 125V has close to 30% of alloys in it, which form the carbides that make sharpening so difficult. So maybe the boundary for the amount of alloys in a steel has been reached, but the recipies for the composition still might change.
 
Hi Bubblewhip,

We've worked with steels where the grinding wheel wear was greater than the steel removal. Hand grinding the blade took a maker all day and a boxload of belts.

Steel development is developing faster than the equipment to grind the steel.....at this time. ;)

Improvement is our evolutionary obligation to humankind. So we will continue to try :o

sal
 
Hi Bubblewhip,

We've worked with steels where the grinding wheel wear was greater than the steel removal. Hand grinding the blade took a maker all day and a boxload of belts.

Steel development is developing faster than the equipment to grind the steel.....at this time. ;)

Improvement is our evolutionary obligation to humankind. So we will continue to try :o

sal

Perhaps the super steels of tomorrow will be shaped by EDM instead of by grinding. I know, slow and pricy.

Bill
 
What would you define as difficult to sharpen? 30 minutes? 1 hour?

If all I had was a basic bare-bones Sharpmaker, I can understand that some knives are impractical to reprofile and sharpen. But diamond and ceramic waterstones make short work of any steel I've come across.

I can take a new-in-box S30V blade with a 40 degree edge, reprofile it to 25 degrees and sharpen to shaving-sharp in about 20 minutes tops. Not trying to toot my own horn, I know several others who can do the same. If I use my power tools to sharpen I can actually do it in about 3 minutes.

S125V takes only somewhat longer. It is reasonable to sharpen as well. S90V and ZDP-189 seems about the same as S30V in sharpening. M4 sharpens like plain carbon steel at the same hardness.

The only thing I've come across that was difficult to sharpen was a ceramic knife, because it kept chipping during sharpening. If we stop at S125V, instead of ceramic and diamond knives, sharpening should remain reasonable for those who have the equipment.
 
Hi Bubblewhip,

We've worked with steels where the grinding wheel wear was greater than the steel removal. Hand grinding the blade took a maker all day and a boxload of belts.


Steel development is developing faster than the equipment to grind the steel.....at this time. ;)

Improvement is our evolutionary obligation to humankind. So we will continue to try :o

sal

Ahh CPM S150V.
I still think one of those newfangled angle cutting water jets or laser on a similar rig would work beautifully.
All I need is a few hundred thousand dollars to test it out.:p
 
Ahh CPM S150V.
I still think one of those newfangled angle cutting water jets or laser on a similar rig would work beautifully.
All I need is a few hundred thousand dollars to test it out.:p

I thought it was S125V. Some tough stuff that is.
 
I thought it was S125V. Some tough stuff that is.

Crucible originally tried to make S150V along with S125V. I forget if Sal ever actually saw any S150V, if he did it would be the prime candidate for the grinder comment.
Given that S125V is back in production and several makers have used it successfully, it's probably not so much prohibitively wear resistant as just very painful to grind.

Also noteworthy was Phil Wilson's comments that S110V gives near the same performance as S125V, only it's much more workable.
It would be interesting to see Crucible try using Niobium to make a halfway point between S125V and S150V, and hopefully end up with something usable.
 
I can sharpen anything with my KMG belt grinder in seconds. :D

Ask someone to send you a bar os S125V. :D

@Joshua: I didn't know about the S150V but I do know that Sal mentioned they have two prototype Militaries that took about a day each to profile out and fit in S125V.
 
how about MPL-1/Supracor. Gabe Newell posted this on another forum back in '03

MPL-1 is very wear resistant. When heat treated to HRc 53, it has 1.5x the wear resistance of S90V at HRc 59. This goes to 2.2x when it is heat treated to HRc 67. Its impact strength, though, is 1/3rd S90V.

The one knife maker I can find who uses MPL-1 is Dieter Wilhelmy.

Dieter Wilhelmy Website

He has information on Supracor, which you can see translated at this link:

Dieter Wilhelmy on Supracor

I contacted Dieter to get more information about his experience with Supracor, and he sent me the following article he wrote for Messer Magazin (in German, with my really weak translation to English appended):






Technology

The High-End Material

Supracor - the name is descriptive. The supermaterial offers enormous abrasion resistance and can also be used for knife blades. Specialist Dieter Wilhelmy tells us what we need to know about this material.

Powder metallurgy steel has made great strides in recent years - in mechanical engineering and with high-quality knives. Most responsible for this is the American manufacturer Crucible Steel, which developed milestones like CPM 440V.

The next entwicklungsstufe(?) was CPM 420V, which possesses even better abrasion resistance with still higher amounts of carbon, vanadium and molybdenum. With a knife blade a higher Schnitthaltigkeit(?) means. Both steels just received new designations: CPM S60V and S90V.

Crucible’s flagship, however, is Supracor, as it is known in Europe, which in the USA is called CPM MPl-1. Supracor is the most highly alloyed powder metallurgy steel in the world. With a carbon content of 3.75 percent and an enormously high chrome content of 24 percent with likewise considerable vanadium and molybdenum Supracor sets yardsticks. Nearly 40 percent of the material isn’t iron. The primary carbide portion is 46 percent (CPM 440V: 24 percent). That means that nearly half of the material consists of extremely hard carbides (carbon compounds).

Already the chemical composition calls for respect. This respect grows substantially the first time you try to work on Supracor. Supracor is available only as round material (for example with a diameter of 50 millimeters); flat material is not available. Therefore flattening tires must be cut from the round material in longitudinal direction. While this sounds simple, it is extremely difficult in practice. Supracor cannot be sawed with carbide tipped saw bands. In fact Supracor has a hardness of 42 HRC in the annealed, thus unhardened, condition.

Only the wire eroding remains. With wire eroding by means of a thin wire and a tension put on funkenerosiv(?) the material is evaporated. In this fashion even the hardest materials can be cut, if they are conductive. However this procedure is not very cheap. Wire erosion machines are CNC machines and accordingly expensive. From this a high machine hour price results.

In addition this procedure takes a very long time. Example: A 230 millimeter long cut in 50-mm round material takes approximately two hours. Depending upon number cutting times result beziehugsweise thickness of the strips up to 24 hours, in order to cut only one piece of open round material. To the very expensive materials price you add enormous cut costs.

The resulting flat pieces are polished on a surface grinding machine primarily with CBN disks. Then the desired outline is roughly before-cut out-polished, and/or with a diamond disk. With a corundum friction disk it goes also, however only under substantial wear of the disk. Then the blank is continued to work on as usual at the Bandschleifer. Applies also here: With corundum volumes it goes, however the consumption of the volumes is very high.

Necessary drillings in Supracor succeed only with tungsten carbides drill, and the service life of the drills is very small also here. Also milling of Supracor with full tungsten carbide drills is extremely material intensive: The drill service life up to the wear limit (full tungsten carbide drill K 05) amounts to with one 10-mm drill and 0.5 millimeters of spantiefe only two minutes! One must clarify oneself: Supracor consists nearly to the half of carbides. The fact that thereby the tools wear very fast is clear.

In relation to these difficulties during processing the advantages of Supracor stand: A measurer from Supracor moderately on approximately 60 HRC hardened (the maximum is with 67 HRC), offers an almost unbelievable schnitthaltigkeit. Compared with a measurer from CPM 420V the abrasion resistance lies approximately twice as highly. Used by a hunter (expert), a CPM-420V-Messer can be still in working condition also after a half year. A Supracor measurer can hold the sharpness for a whole year. In practice also some Spielereien are possible: With a Supracor measurer hardened on 67 HRC at a CPM-420v blade (59 HRC) splinters were already scraped off.

The table of the manufacturer offers objective verschleisszahlen (see to box the schnitthaltigkeit). These values were determined under reproducible, standardized conditions.

A further outstanding characteristic of Supracor is the extremely high corrosion resistance. Due to the composition (the matrix holds lots of free chromium) this strength is also no miracle.

The Achilles heel of this superalloy is the small notched-bar impact-strength. It amounts to only approximately a third of CPM 420V (CPM 420V has the same notched-bar impact-strength as 1,4125 = 440C). Should one all-went with a measurer cut and not lever or similar abuse commit. Before a Supracor blade breaks, all bells in the head should ring. Differently expressed: It belongs to already a due portion of courage will to break a Supracor off blade. Naturally play also thickness and processing as well as the thermal treatment sound a large role.

Not easy is also sharpening a Supracor knife: the production of the sharpness takes place at the best korundstein current on one slowly (90 revolutions per minute), which runs additionally in a wasserbad. Functions! One does not need a diamond stone. However the abrasion at the korundstein is higher when sharpening Supracor than with all other steel, and the procedure lasts longer.

Apropos sharpness: a band sharpener is absolutely unsuitable, in order to produce at a high-quality measurer the sharpness - not only with Supracor blade. The sharpening temperatures, which thereby in the thinnest place, speak at the cut, arise, can lie far over 1000 degrees Celsius. It can come even to melting the steel. These temperatures play themselves mind you in the small one off (within the in order range), but preferentially exactly at the point of the cut - where the knife to cut is. From the enormously high temperatures - results casually expressed - alloy mixing machine, which everything else as the ideal condition of the steel represents. Then one their optimal gumption ability does not bring oneself.

Even with hand-guided whet-stones these extreme temperatures can occur. Result: Always beautifully slowly with the speed, and always well hand loops cool with water, also with!

After this digression, back to the Supracor: This material is manufactured only in relatively small quantities. That has to do with the fact that only very few economically justifiable applications exist. Differently expressed: Supracor is very expensively and very difficult to work on, and the thing makes relatively uneconomic for the industry.

In order to say it completely clearly: I personal keep at present CPM 420V in the sum of its characteristics (in addition also the price belongs) for the best cutlery steel. Supracor will remain always a Exote(?) under the cutlery steels - but a challenge for each knifemaker.

Or maybe Rex 121 at Rc 71?
 
Rex 121, even something as common as M48 is beyond the current limit for sporting knives. The limit has been reached for production of sporting knives somewhere around S90V.

Industrial use blades are routinely made with the 15V's, M48's, T15, etc. They use CNC machines and diamonds and lasers. Special heat treat equipment too for a lot of these alloys.

If you have to keep a production line going you will pay the price for custom fabrication. For sporting use knives produced by craftsmen? Forget it. There's not a large enough market and therefore not a large pool of makers willing.

Even here at Bladeforums how often do we here how 420HC is just fine, and D2, and S30V are too difficult to sharpen? We are the exceptions. The average guy doesn't dream about ultra hard high speed steel sporting knives.

If there was a large enough market these current boundries would fall quickly. Until then you have to look for a custom maker willing to work with S125V, and there are not many of them.

cotdt made mine, BTW. :) He would make one in 15V if I could find him some stock. He's the exception rather than the rule though. :)

I'm still amazed that hardheart was able to source a production run of S125V knives made at a commercial firm. I've often wondered if he had to promise to marry the bosses daughter to pull that one off. :)
 
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