Have stropman two sided strop with green and black compounds, add diamond paste?

[wphill]

I'm thinking of an experiment, but thought that I would first tap into those more experienced with stropping.
Knives to be stropped would be softer western stainless and some hard carbon japanese knives.

As I go down the road of stropping, ideally, I want to avoid dead end attempts already known by others to have
limited value.

Material on hand-- I have one jumpo stropman with leather flesh side up on two sides. I started by applying a thin
layer of the black compound(4mu) to one side and a thin layer of green compound (.5mu) to the other
side. So far, I'm not in love with the results.

Other stropping supplies on hand to develop further:
--one self made leather(2ml) strop with smooth side up,
--one substantial balsa board( 1x12)..nothing added
--and, another longer balsa board(3/8x37") to make
strops as needed.

So far, I like stropping better on the balsa...just plain better than stropman's strop. Having
said that, I am still very new to sharpening and it's likely that his compound has not been applied heavily
enough.

On order are syringes of diamond paste from wickededgeusa.com...There are six pastes, ranging from
.5mu to 14mu. A product very similar to once made by Hand America.

I have enough leather to make more strops but wonder if I can work with stropman's strop before doing this.
I could match a diamond paste with either the green or black compounds. My sense is that the paste, alone,
is best applied to smooth leather, but if stropman's rough side is loaded evenly with his compound I could be
creating an interesting sub-substrate to apply the diamond paste...well, maybe.

As an example, I could add a 5mu diamond paste to the 4mu black wax compound;
and/or add a .5mu diaond paste to the .5mu green wax compound.

Thoughts?
If the experiment just wastes material, how do I clean it off and start over?
Lighter fluid?
Or, even if I like the results, at some point how is the surface cleaned when metal loads up?
Other options...remove stropman's compounds and put the diamond paste on the rough side?
..Or, just abandon the experiment and apply the diamond paste to newly made either leather or balsa strops?

Another issue...I'm using leather that I have on hand..bovine...is it too thin, which makes for a moderately
hard substrate? It's a fairly refined but firm piece of leather...once used as an inlay on a desk.

Kind of a smorgusboard question:jerkit:.....feedback welcome!

 

[Sadden]

I wouldnt waste your time. The stick type compounds on your stropman strop will not be nearly as finely graded as the WEPs compounds will be. Also the stick compounds are going to be much coarser than that in reality. Also the stick compounds are a thick waxy type base , the carrier may or may not mix with the oil based WEPs pastes i couldnt say for sure.

So 14u is equal to roughly 1k , and the 0.5u is equal to roughly 30k , my next question is what are you leading into all of this with? A good 1k stone is ideal when planning on doing a progression of so many strops.

As for substrates you can experiment and see what works for you theres paper on different backings ,balsa , leather etc. Personally i like Kangaroo Leather.

 

[wphill]

Sadden,
I'm freehanding. Stones: chosera 400,chosera 800....and Shapton GS4k.
I think of the strops as being used as part of two different routines. One is when I'm doing a progression of stones...albeit could just be the chosera 800 when my good knives
become a little dull rather than real dull. The second routine is maintenance...stropping between preps.

If I came off the 800, my thought would be a series of three stops--10,5, and 1 mu's...and all this for only the j.knives
For maintenance, just the 5mu...for either softer western steel knives or the j.knives, or maybe just coarser 10mu for the western kives.

Make new leather strops for the wep diamond paste?

It's like food, I hate to see something wasted. What role would the stropman strops with either black/coarse or green have?
Clean them off and put something else on it? IF so, like what? These are rough sided strops.

I wouldnt waste your time. The stick type compounds on your stropman strop will not be nearly as finely graded as the WEPs compounds will be. Also the stick compounds are going to be much coarser than that in reality. Also the stick compounds are a thick waxy type base , the carrier may or may not mix with the oil based WEPs pastes i couldnt say for sure.

So 14u is equal to roughly 1k , and the 0.5u is equal to roughly 30k , my next question is what are you leading into all of this with? A good 1k stone is ideal when planning on doing a progression of so many strops.

As for substrates you can experiment and see what works for you theres paper on different backings ,balsa , leather etc. Personally i like Kangaroo Leather.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

(...) "Knives to be stropped would be softer western stainless and some hard carbon japanese knives."

If used only on these, the progression or combination of multiple strops and diamond compound seems a whole lot of unnecessary complication and overkill to me. Especially for the 'softer western stainless' knives, some basic white or grey AlOx compound should do, perhaps with a very brief & light follow-up on green compound. Most of the quality work should be done on the stones prior to stropping (simpler stainless will be better off with a somewhat coarser finish anyway), at which time the stropping should be minimal, just for cleaning up burrs and some very light refinement. The Japanese knives in harder high-carbon steels may not need anything, beyond some good work on your waterstones. If you're not getting adequate results with the black and green compounds you've got, it's more likely due to the edges not being quite as refined as they should be, coming off the stones. Strops of any kind will only be as good as the work that precedes their use.

Diamond compound, or CBN, would only really be needed for steels containing heavy vanadium carbides, neither of which apply by your intended described use. I'm sure they'd work OK, but likely completely unnecessary. In a nutshell, for the steels described, I'd think 'simpler is better.' Your edge finish should be dictated by the last stone you use, and the stropping should be minimal, beyond that. This is assuming you're not just pursuing perfect mirrors on your bevels, as opposed to putting good or great working edges on knives you're actually using.


David

 

[wphill]

David,
I agree with much of you say. At this point, my accumulation of sharpening resources is ahead of my skill with the stones.
And, stropping is a personal preference and source of great division of opinion. If one may put that aside, if nothing
else stropping in between prep sessions (home cook, a lot of sliced and minced vegetables..a lot) strikes me as a good way to
retain an edge. Keep in mind, I side with simplicity. Perhaps, more than anything I wish to figure out how to best use the strop
props that I have and to develop a routine. No doubt, it will be up to me to experiment. Just looking for input that might be an
aid along the way. I am still wet behind the ears, green as can be.

If used only on these, the progression or combination of multiple strops and diamond compound seems a whole lot of unnecessary complication and overkill to me. Especially for the 'softer western stainless' knives, some basic white or grey AlOx compound should do, perhaps with a very brief & light follow-up on green compound. Most of the quality work should be done on the stones prior to stropping (simpler stainless will be better off with a somewhat coarser finish anyway), at which time the stropping should be minimal, just for cleaning up burrs and some very light refinement. The Japanese knives in harder high-carbon steels may not need anything, beyond some good work on your waterstones. If you're not getting adequate results with the black and green compounds you've got, it's more likely due to the edges not being quite as refined as they should be, coming off the stones.

Diamond compound, or CBN, would only really be needed for steels containing heavy vanadium carbides, neither of which apply by your intended described use. I'm sure they'd work OK, but likely completely unnecessary. In a nutshell, for the steels described, I'd think 'simpler is better.'


David

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David,
I agree with much of you say. At this point, my accumulation of sharpening resources is ahead of my skill with the stones.
And, stropping is a personal preference and source of great division of opinion. If one may put that aside, if nothing
else stropping in between prep sessions (home cook, a lot of sliced and minced vegetables..a lot) strikes me as a good way to
retain an edge. Keep in mind, I side with simplicity. Perhaps, more than anything I wish to figure out how to best use the strop
props that I have and to develop a routine. No doubt, it will be up to me to experiment. Just looking for input that might be an
aid along the way. I am still wet behind the ears, green as can be.

For some perspective, I strop most all of my knives with the same end goal of simplicity; this is 99% of the maintenance I do on mine. Almost never go back to stones, unless repairing blunted (impacted) edges and such. Almost all of my stropping gets done using some white rouge, or more recently, some grey AlOx stick compound (Sears #2) on denim that's stuck on a wooden paint stir stick*. For kitchen-use knives especially, the best working edges usually come off of relatively coarse stones, such as a hardware-store SiC/AlOx stone at roughly 320-grit, or occasionally a Fine diamond at ~600 (25µ DMT or Fallkniven hones). The white rouge or grey AlOx stropping afterwards is mainly for cleaning up the burrs that are typically left by such coarse sharpening on softish stainless blades. With simpler non-stainless steels like 1095, I'll sometimes also follow with some green compound on a leather belt, used like a hanging strop. Even then, that only needs maybe ~5 strokes or less, and will really make hairs pop on those edges.

(* Also use the same strop with 420HC, 440A/440C, D2, VG-10, ATS-34/154CM, 12C27, 8Cr13MoV and others.)

I've got DMT Dia-Paste compounds in 6, 3 and 1µ sizes, but almost never use them anymore. For blades in S30V or similar steels, the 3µ and finer diamond compounds are GREAT (used on wood). Really makes a difference in refining and polishing the uber-hard vanadium carbides in those steels. Otherwise, they tend to over-polish simpler and softer steels, unless used very, very minimally. This is why I favor AlOx or green compounds on those, as they'll refine every bit as good, but allow a greater margin of safety in avoiding stripping all the 'bite' out of the edge, as otherwise happens with a diamond compound taken just a bit too far.


David

 

[wphill]

I hear kangaroo leather is great...A little pricey, as I should complain. David..thanks for sharing your routine. I guess that many of us are seduced with super fine compounds when coarser ones
can work better. So far, what I'm taking in is that over polishing can work against function. My goodness, you know your steels.

Along the lines of difficult steels...here's a question for you....I have some old (50's) Gerber carvers. Someone was generous enough to sharpen them using his edge pro system.
He had to use atoma 140 and diamond films to set a bevel..the edges were totally blunt and may never used. Worked great on breaking down a raw whole chicken, but for carving
I think that they can do better. First strokes are great and then the density of protein seems to get the better of them. I think that these older gerbers have a lot vanadium.

Back to my collections of strops...if there's one point I would like addressed, "What should I do with the stropman strop?" Specific options:....is it a good leather strop but best cleaned with another compound added other than their stick...double down and apply the black and green sticks more aggressively...put it aside and focus on compounds applied to smooth leather
or balsa?" No magic bullet expected. I anticipate that I will experiment for myself. Just hate to load stropman full blast, knowing how hard it will be to remove it.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I hear kangaroo leather is great...A little pricey, as I should complain. David..thanks for sharing your routine. I guess that many of us are seduced with super fine compounds when coarser ones
can work better. So far, what I'm taking in is that over polishing can work against function. My goodness, you know your steels.

Along the lines of difficult steels...here's a question for you....I have some old (50's) Gerber carvers. Someone was generous enough to sharpen them using his edge pro system.
He had to use atoma 140 and diamond films to set a bevel..the edges were totally blunt and may never used. Worked great on breaking down a raw whole chicken, but for carving
I think that they can do better. First strokes are great and then the density of protein seems to get the better of them. I think that these older gerbers have a lot vanadium.

Back to my collections of strops...if there's one point I would like addressed, "What should I do with the stropman strop?" Specific options:....is it a good leather strop but best cleaned with another compound added other than their stick...double down and apply the black and green sticks more aggressively...put it aside and focus on compounds applied to smooth leather or balsa?" No magic bullet expected. I anticipate that I will experiment for myself. Just hate to load stropman full blast, knowing how hard it will be to remove it.

If it were mine, I'd likely just put that one aside for now, without doing anything radical to it. More than once, after initially thinking one of my sharpening tools 'wasn't working well', I've frequently found that, eventually, something else is going on (usually with my own technique or methods) that is having the greater impact on my results. I've seen a lot of positive comments about the Stropman strops here on the forum, so I'm inclined to believe there's not much bad about them; or, at the very least, there as good as any similar strop should be.

For all of the 'experimenting', I'd just find and use some decent quality leather and/or other substrate materials (recommend trying denim, linen, paper, etc.), on strops constructed relatively simply and inexpensively. When stropping with compounds, it's almost ridiculously simple at times in how simple and cheap the base materials need to be, in order to produce great results. When it comes right down to it, the compound itself, and the firmness and ability of the substrate to hold and embed the compound is what makes 99% of the difference. This is the realization I came to, in discovering my 'best strop' of denim-over-HomeDepot-paint-stirring-stick construction, with the simple hardware store AlOx compound on it. If you take some time to experiment on your improvised strops, at some point down the line, you'll begin to see certain things that work well, and then you might adapt those things to your Stropman strop (if you still want to; you might not see the need for it at all, down the road).


David

 

[wphill]

DAvid,
I got it. All makes sense. Gradually, sinking in. I'll put stropman aside, for now. I have some old linen napkins. How would you apply it to a wood substrate? I know that you like, really like HD
paint sticks.What I have on hand is wood glue and cement glue.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

DAvid,
I got it. All makes sense. Gradually, sinking in. I'll put stropman aside, for now. I have some old linen napkins. How would you apply it to a wood substrate? I know that you like, really like HD
paint sticks.What I have on hand is wood glue and cement glue.

Something like contact cement should work well, or I use a product called DAP Weldwood Multipurpose Spray Adhesive, which is applied and allowed to get somewhat 'tacky' before sticking the fabric or whatever on the wood. I spray both surfaces, then wait for 10-20 minutes; then just press the two together. The DAP spray can also be used in 'temporary' fashion; usually peels off pretty easily, if you want to replace your fabric or whatever. Wet or liquid glues might be too messy with permeable fabric; I wouldn't want it bleeding through to the surface. Could also use double-sided tape (not the foam type) or carpet tape for the same purpose; I have a few strops assembled that way.


David

 

[wphill]

deleted the accidental duplicate...

David,
The DAP product is a great idea...I was in a hobby shop looking for a spray...all they had was epoxy products. Walked out with a nice piece of balsa.
I had no idea that there was a temporary type application. Thanks. This gives me more flexibility.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Personally, nothing is easier than simply applying a prospective compound or grit onto a sheet of copy or writing paper and wrapping a few sheets around a dry sharpening stone. Stones with more surface texture, like the coarse side of a combination stone etc will allow the paper to sink in a bit between the high points and reduce the amount of push back as the edge passes by - reducing likelihood of rounding. Also provides some additional tactile feedback that is not in abundance on most strops.

Using paper gives you the ability to change the abrasive and number of sheets of backing, reliably, and avoid any problems with the strop loading up, a consideration if using in sequence to remove a bit of steel leading into a finer compound. So very easy to tweak the results for varying outcomes. Is also very inexpensive and requires zero initial prep time.

Once you dial in on a preferred compound/finish level, you can maybe move to leather or balsa or kangaroo, or just stay on the paper.

I am not familiar with your waterstones, but the mud from a waterstone or vitreous oil stone can be reclaimed on a sheet of paper, allowed to dry (or oil to soak in and spread out), and this can be used as a good stropping compound as described above.

Martin

 

[Bladenoobie1]

I have mixed results with stropping on a leather strop. Personally I feel its only good right after the stone, but prolonged use and easily dull the apex unless you are very careful. I have stropman strops, but I don't use them too often. The only compound I use from stropman is the black sic carbide abrasive. Always has worked well for me on the leather strop and I use it for toothier edges. Not nearly as good results with the green and white stropman rouge.

What I use primarily now is glass with 2 pieces of regular printer paper wrapped around it or 2 pieces of printer paper wrapped around heavyhanded's washboard. As for abrasive I use anything from 1 micron boron carbide paste, 1 micron diamond spray, 6 micron diamond paste, black sic carbide abrasive, or HH's sic abrasive. Just depending on the kind of finish I want.

 

[Sadden]

Good comments David and Martin.

So while diamond is not neccassary for the steels you deal with , they arent a poor choice either as this leaves you room to grow into more carbide rich steels. However a compound such as Boron Carbide or Aluminium Oxide may actually be faster on these steels , as monocrystalline diamond (such as the diamond in the WEPs pastes) has very few cutting edges compared to many other abrasives.

Personally I like the Boron Carbide sold by Ken Schwartz. Its a very cost effective stropping compound for those who only deal with the more basic steels.

If you plan on going forward with your stropping progression i would suggest balsa or paper ,as this is the most cost effective way to prevent rounding. Maybe on the final paste use leather for additional burnishing.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I use black, white & green compound with washboard for simple carbon steel & soft stainless (up to 8Cr13MoV) on paper wrapped around Martin's washboard.

It works well for regular maintenance, and I mostly only go back to white & green. The black I have is quite agressive, it'll change the mirror left by green back to hazy surface, & the edge is quite toothy. It works for minor repair (blunting from wear). After green, it usually dry shave ready.

 

[wphill]

Chris, Where do you get your compounds...same as the sticks from stropman?

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Bluntcut sent me some samples. Might be better asking him.
I found Autosol to perform very similar to the white, though it's a bit less agressive.

Edit to add: perhaps this old thread has some info:www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1036649-A-balanced-strop

The green is HA green. Not sure about the black, but is seems similar to the one tested by Magnanimous on washboard (in a video he showed this).

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Cheap bulk white compound & bulk black compound - USA Knive Maker
Paper wheel white compound - Grizzly Industrial
HA green - Either Chef Knives To Go or some place
Diamond paste - Advanced Abrasives (they no longer offers retail)
Diamond powder - Amazon
Diamond slurry - US-products

Chris, Where do you get your compounds...same as the sticks from stropman?