having pin problems

T.Saslow

T.Saslow

Periodic Thinker
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
479
Hello, I have a quick question regarding pins in knife handles.
Almost all of my knives have wood handles with brass or stainless pins and just off the shelf epoxy from lock-tight. Recently, I have been noticing that the pins on my knives are rising up a little on my handles creating a slight ridge. I make sure to sand the pins flush to the wood when i am doing final sanding but it seems no matter what I do, the pins just rise up. I know for a fact that the wood I get is fully dried so I really have no idea what is causing this. Any ideas? I love the look of wood on a knife but I am afraid if this is a reoccurring pattern, I may have to resort to G10 or micarta ( not that I have anything against either, they are just a pain to work with).

Also, while im on the subject of knife handles, what are the advantages to "G flex" epoxy as opposed to just regular 5 minute epoxy from home depot? I keep hearing all about it and I have absolutely NO idea what all the hupplah is about.

Thank you for your time!
Tanner
 
Sorry to hear you're having troubles. It's definitely frustrating putting in a lot of time to be disappointed later on. It's good to hear you're using dry wood, but my money is still on it being your problem. If you think about it, which is more likely: a stainless or brass pin expanding enough to be proud of the wood, or the wood moving enough for the pin to be felt? Even dry wood can and will move some with weather changes. How long has the wood you've been using been at your place? I know makers that have the wood for handles they use acclimate to their environment for many months or over a year before using. Another thing you can try is some stabilized wood. It isn't impervious to moisture, but a lot less than unstabilized and you still get the nice look of wood. Also, what species of wood are you using where this is happening?

I just thought of something and wanted to be sure I'm not thinking of this incorrectly-is the pin proud of the wood on both sides of the handle or just one?

In regards to the epoxy... I haven't used the g-flex, personally. I started out with loctite 5 minute epoxy and ultimately invested in some acraglas. Basically, the longer setting epoxies are going to serve you better. If you do some Google searches about I think it was called epoxy wars on bladeforums, you'll see some interesting stuff. The other thing is, the 5 minute stuff will start setting up and getting thick sooner than I'd like. The longer setting stuff gives me more time to work and get things right. Whatever you choose to use, get something of high quality. If you plan to sell anything or want the knife to last a really long time, a proper epoxy can help greatly over some of the cheaper options. It's definitely one of those areas where you pretty well pay for better quality.

Jeremy
 
Yes, I am fairly certain all the wood I u:barf:se is fully stabilized. This knife in particular i used Leopardwood and I had contacted the dealer and he said they dried it out in kiln. I have used ipe ( Brazilian walnut) and that was even worse. That piece was outside drying for a few years over my fire rack and was exposed to rain. I brought it inside though, planed it down, and it was drying in my garage for more than a year. Also used are walnut, dalbergia spruciana, and bloodwood. The only one i have not ( that I know of) had any problems with is G10 and that leads me to believe that it is related to shrinking.
As for the pins, the "phenomenon" occurs on both sides so I don't think it is the pins popping loose. The main reason I have not gotten any pre-stabilized wood is that this is a local buissnes and they are really nice to me( giving me free cutoffs and letting me go through their dumpsters)and I like supporting local businesses. I think i will purchase a few pieces of wood that are pre stabilized and see if this happens to them. If they don't shrink, I may invest in a small stabilization setup so I can keep supporting them while providing a quality product.
I'll have to check out that epoxy test though, it sounds really onteresting :)
 
You said the wood is stabilized, but you only talk about drying wood. Dry doesn't mean its stabilized. Stabilization involves an acrylic resin and a vacuum chamber. to fill all the voids in wood with the resin so that it isn't affected by humidity. You can buy wood from anywhere, but most wood needs to be stabilized if you want to prevent this type of problem. Send it to someplace like K&G supply who do it professionally.
 
Huh...okay. Is suppose you learn something every day! Thanks for the info. Do you know of a good place to purchase this?
 
A common thing that happens is you heat up the wood while sanding on the belt grinder. After it cools, the pins are proud. Ivory is famous for this.

It takes a little touch up with some sandpaper and a wooden block, plus some hand sanding, to cure this. The best solution is to not let the handle heat up.
 
Thanks for all the feedback! I am not sure if it is the beat though. The wood wasn't't burning any but who knows. I have been ver impressed with Leopardwood though because it DOES NOT BURN! I can grid on it for as long as I want and there is no sign of any scorching(I wasn't't doing that though, I was taking it slow and making sure everything is symmetric.

Also, doesnletting the handle soak in boiled linseed oil for 24 hours work in terms of stabilizing? I suppose it' not a high tech acrylic but it does penetrate and offer waterproof properties...that is what I have been doing so I would assume that would be a no :(
 
I recently looked into how to stabilize wood and if you just google it some very interesting stuff pops up. From what I've heard and learned though, having I professionally done or buying from a knife supplier is the best way to go. Using BLO soaking isn't something that will help, as it's not a hardener
 
Huh, okay. That's what i though but i just wanted to double check. I'll have to figure out some way to stabilize my wood either commercially or DIY but i think that is my next priority ;)
 
Meant to write back last week. Knife and Gun supply aka K&G does stabilizing. Also Burl Source and Alpha Knife Supply (both are members here) sell stabilized wood.
 
Okay, thanks. I have been doing research lately and I have seen people just using minwax wood hardener. Would this be an acceptable(and much, much cheaper) substitute? Also, is there any problem with just scraping the vacume chamber idea and just leaving the scales in a bottle of the Hardener for a week? Thank you for all your help, I really appreciate it :)
 
Google "wood equilibrium moisture content" and you'll see that your wood was not really drying much in the garage, certainly not compared to how dry it got once you brought the completed knife into the house. Get a thermometer/hygrometer and test for yourself. A wood moisture meter would not be a bad investment either. Knife scales are thin so the amount of wood movement is likely to be very small between outdoors and indoors, but it only takes a few thousandths to feel the top of a pin.

What to do? Well an easy solution would be to bring the wood into the house for a few weeks before you are going to use it, and then complete your garage work quickly before the wood absorbs moisture again.

You could build a "warming cabinet" with a light bulb or other low wattage heater in it to create a dry area in the garage to store your wood in.

If you are going to stabilize your wood, it will need to be very dry, drier than it probably is now. There are a few folks who have had good luck stabilizing their own wood, there are a lot more who spent a bunch of money and ruined a lot of wood learning ways that didn't work...

To paraphrase the old saying, you want to spend time making knives, or stabilizing wood (or building tools,etc ...)
 
okay, that sounds more doable. i will dry it out in my house and then plop it in wood hardener for a week or so and just experiment with it. sounds like a plan Stan ;) any objections?
 
You don't seem to hear what everyone is telling you. Just drying it for a few days in the house and popping it in hardener for a few days isn't going to do it. The pro's, K & G, for example, measure the dryness with a moisture meter (as I recall it has to be less than 8% moisture), then put the wood and acrylic under vacuum for a week or so, then put it under pressure for a couple of weeks, then usually bake it for a few hours. The result is all the pores are filled with a heat cured acrylic so no water can penetrate the wood. If you want a knife with wood scales, why not do it right?

The slower curing epoxys are much stronger than the 5 minute epoxys. G-flex, from Gougeon Brothers is, IMHO, the best epoxy for gluing scales to the blade. Steel and wood or G-10 or micarta all expand and contract at different rates due to heat and cooling. Once most epoxys are cured, they are rigid, unlike G-flex, which is formulated to have a slight amount, only a few thousandths, of give. Thus, when the steel expands faster than the wood the epoxy will give just enough to keep the scale from popping off. G-flex was formulated to do that.

I apologize for sounding like I'm lecturing you but it sounds like you are asking questions of experienced knife makers and then ignoring their answers.

Tim
 
Okay, I understand. I'll check that company out. I do have a moisture Meter at my house though..... Anyways, thanks for the help. I apologize if I came across as...ignorant.
 
No need to apologize. The multitude of videos and internet posts about using Minwax and other "Home Brew" stabilizing agents is really annoying to the folks who care about the quality of a knife handle. Most give bad advice.

Stick with us here on Bladeforums and you will get good advice ( most of the time :) .

Ken at K&G does excellent work stabilizing handle material.
 
Thanks for understanding :) I'll look in to it tonight if I have time!
 
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