Having trouble with forming a burr.

M

marvinstarving

Joined
Mar 10, 2007
Messages
26
Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong? Most everything I read says to form a burr on the first side sharpened, then go to the other side of the blade and form a burr. The second burr forms very quickly most of the time. The first burr is the one giving me the grief. When using my Lansky or stropping with 220 grit sand paper, the first side does not want to make a burr. With three knives now with the Lansky I had to stop and change sides because the blade edge had been sharpened almost all the way to the opposite side of the blade. The burr never developed. When the second side is started the burr develops fairly soon. I am ending up with knives that have a lot more metal removed from the first side. The knives work well they just do not look very well done. Also I am finding it a lot easier to strop the blades after using the Lansky sharpener to reshape the edge. Is this normal?
Thanks for any help
 
Hi Cliff,
Yes, that is what is happening a chisel grind. Not on purpose!! Sometimes it takes hours to get them to this point. When the blade gets to this stage or close to it without a burr I finally give up on a burr and start the other side. In very little time without removing nearly as much metal a burr magically appears. I can see and feel the burr from that point onward as I change stones or sand paper.
If someone knows what I am doing wrong it will save a lot of time, and make a lot better looking job.
Maybe it's from my childhood and my dad telling me burrs are bad. I spent over 40 years trying to never develop a burr. Now that burrs are a good thing the first one on each blade tries to avoid me.
 
This can often happen with very dull knives if you grind on one side only until you get a burr. The easiest way to prevent it is to grind or alternate sides every 50 strokes or so. That will keep your edge centered for the most part.
 
marvinstarving said:
I spent over 40 years trying to never develop a burr.
Click to expand...

There is a lot of confusion about burrs due to some odd ideas being propogated. The burr method of sharpening is a novice level idea intended only for those who can't figure out when to stop sharpening a knife. A burr tells you that the bevel has gone all the way to the edge, that is all.

Now on some steels it won't form, or forms very minimally. On those steels you just use your finger pad and you can tell when it is sharp. The precurser is to make a couple of light passes right into the stone to remove all weakened metal.

Based on what you are seeing I think you are just seeing plastic deformation when you switch from overhoning the other side. In short, don't hone so much on one side. Just sharpen until the edge is crisp, doesn't reflect light and then switch and repeat. Cut off any burr now if necessary.

-Cliff
 
I believe when you sharpen/grind on one side only, of a very dull knife, a burr doesn’t form because there is no edge type shape, it’s rounded. Therefore you grind and grind on that one side moving off center more and more, then when your sick of doing that side and switch to the other side it doesn’t take much and a burr pops up quickly but you have an off center edge. Here is a kind of related thread.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=403533&highlight=center
 
marvinstarving,

By Lansky system, do you mean the T-shaped guide and the stones with the rods coiming out of the ends?

I started learning to sharpen on the Gatco version of this system. I found that if I sharpen with pressure while going both directions, it's much harder to detect the burr. I don't know if the burr wasn't forming, or if it was just so small that it was hard to detect. The burr is much more detectable if you go with an edge leading stroke, like you're trying to whittle away at the stone.

Another idea to note is that the burr should form when you reach the mid-line of the blade. If you know that you've gone past the center of the blade, you should have already formed a burr (if one is going to form).
 
Yes it is the Lansky with the T handle. Another sharpener that I will be getting rid of. The thing works ok, but I thinking of going back to freehand.
Thanks again for all the help. The next knife will get the same amount of strokes per side instead of waiting for a burr. I hate to go back and fix the ones with the off center edge. After they were stropped they are the sharpest knives I have ever handled. I was putting olive oil on a slicing knife blade yesterday. That had just been stropped. My finger had just barley touched the edge and OW and blood. Had to put a band ad on that one.
It is really nice having this form with great guys to help with our problems.
Thanks again, hope you all have a great day.
 
After a couple of uses with my Gatco I decided to go freehand too. That system was good to get me started and understand the basics of edge geometry, but I like the freedom and challange of sharpening freehand.

Good Luck!
 
I went through the exact same process when I first began to use a Lansky.

The main problem is that the instructions that come with it are woeful - I got a large, fold-out colour page advertising Lansky products, but just one thin (multi-language) instruction sheet. Actually telling people how to use their product could not cost more than a couple of cents per unit sold. . . and take out the trial and error aspect of using the thing. I wonder how much negative word-of-mouth they are getting because of cheaping out on the instructions?

IMO, the best instructions for using a Lansky are on Steve Bottorff's Sharpening Made Easy site (which I posted about a couple of minutes ago; it's like I've only ever been to the one sharpening website!). Start reading it here: http://users.ameritech.net/knives/knives1a.htm

Personally, I find the Lansky too fussy - try getting a narrow angle on a small blade without an alarming rise in your blood pressure! - but it has given me (a novice here) a feel for angles and also technique. Whatever sharpening system you use, you will have to do the same to both sides of the blade. That is not a fault of the Lansky.

It can produce some great edges, given a little experience and a lot of patience. Some of my best ever cuts have come from Lansky sharpened blades; usually through the cloth I was wiping it with and taking a flap from my finger before I realised what was going on - doh!

I'm learning the mouse mat technique, because I personally think sharpening should be a form of meditation, but I'm still using the Lansky so I've got a sharp edge for comparison. But when I can beat it, it's going!
 
Grebo is correct. The only time you don’t want to do the same amount of work on each side is if you want a chisel grind, or the edge isn’t centered. Marvin you don’t need to fix your edges all at once use them and dull them and just start your grinding on the shallow side and do the same thing moving it back to center.
 
marvinstarving said:
When using my Lansky or stropping with 220 grit sand paper, the first side does not want to make a burr.
Click to expand...
My guess is that the lansky has the wrong angle set for the type of grind on that knife.

Getting a a burr (or wire edge) is KEY to getting this knife sharp.
You just have to get a burr now before we can move on to other steps to get a hair-popping edge on this knife.

The burr is key!.....remember that...the burr is key!

At this point I dont see a way out of not starting over with a different system. I own a Lansky myself, I have it put away for a good reason...I never liked it.
Lets start over with a sharpening stone.
Get a stone and do it free hand...

any questions on how to do this?.and my email address is alanmolstad@hotmail.com

oh and I think the BLADE mag as some information this month about sharpening a knife too!
 
Let me start over. Most of the knives I am sharpening are vintage carbon steel. As such they are usually very dull, and miss sharpened. I have no way of knowing what the original blade angle was. I sharpen them at 17 degrees as they are mainly chefs or slicing knives. I want them to be really sharp when I am done. Most of the knives are high end top quality knives. It has become a hobby to collect these knives from flea markets ECT. It is a lot of fun bringing these old Sabatier, Henckels, and Sword and Shields ECT. Back to life.
It was looking bad though when the blades were coming out so far off center. I used to use a Chefs Choice electric sharpener on them. They were sharp, but I knew they could be better.
Today I bought a DMT 600 grit. Started with the Sword and Shield knife. The knife was fairly sharp to begin with. Went with 50 strokes per side. Never developed a burr, but do not want anymore of center blades. It will now shave a little bit. Next, was a Case butcher knife. It raised a burr at 40 strokes per side. Then one of my wife’s stainless steel Henkels pairing knives. 50 strokes per side, never a burr either side after several tries each side. It is a lot sharper than it was.
It’s a work in progress. It is still confusing me that one knife burrs and another won’t. Like I said it’s a work in progress.
Thanks all who are helping
 
I've never been able to get a really hair popping sharp edge with the 600 grit DMT's, but a few strokes on the 1200 grit after I finish on the 600 really brings it out (maybe I use too much pressure?). I've noticed the diamond stones seem to reduce burr formation also (maybe because they cut more and burnish less?) compared to traditional stones I've used.
 
It could take much more than 50 strokes per side to form and edge and then a burr. However, you’re moving in the right direction. I just used 50 as a random number, but do 50 on one side, then 50 on the other then repeat until your burr forums on both sides along the whole edge. You could use 10 or 20 as your number of strokes to switch sides and as I think about it doing 20 per side until a burr starts sounds like a good idea. Once the burr does start forming you may even want to drop down to 10, 5, and then 1 stroke per side. Remove the burr then move to a higher grit stone if you want to polish more than your 600 grit edge.
 
When sharpening a knife, there is no point in counting strokes.

(I will pause now and let that statement sink in...LOL)
................

It does not matter how many strokes one side took to raise a burr.

To sharpen , you only stroke one side first. You keep stroking that first side of the blade into the stone until you can feel the burr all along the edge on the "up" side.

Only then do you fip the blade over to begin to sharpen this other side.
Thats why counting is pointless.
Who cares if it took 40 strokes? or 50? or 60?..
The important thing is that you can't stop until you have raised a burr all along that first "up" side, and only then can you flip the knife over to start work on the other side.

Then after you have raised this second burr, (again as felt on the new "up" side) you can start the more traditional stroke-flip-stroke-flip movements of the blade .
But at this point you are really working to get rid of the burr you just created, and not so much at sharpening the edge anymore.
 
Allan, thats just not right. Then you end up with this mans very problem to begin with- an off-center edge! Maybe not every time, but you could easily end up removing much more material from one side then the other.
 
No, I am right,,,
It is pointless to grind on both sides at the same time...infact it can cause more harm and pitting to a blade.

The very way to go is to pick a side to start on, and sharpen that side against the stone first.
Only after you have raised a burr on the "up" side is it time to flip the blade over and start to sharpen that side.

and only after you have this 2nd side done and have raised a burr all along the "up" side do you them switch gears and start to do the more traditional form of stroke-flip-stroke.

This will result in a sharp and centered edge.

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=26036
Section Four: Sharpening Basics
and
Section Five: Sharpening Step by Step
The only way to get a edge off center is to really spend way too much time working the one same side.
If you do think you have spent too much time on one side, then you will have to flip, but for most sharpening thats not going to be a problem.

With the new knives I make that are as thick as a dime along the cutting edge, I just watch to make sure I dont spend too much time on that first side.

But for most of the time, you wont have that danger, and I would not worry a new guy about that problem until he gets a few knives hair-poppin sharp.
 
Here is an example totally made up but May clear up what I am saying. 20 strokes right side, 20 strokes left side,20 strokes rs, 20 strokes ls, 20 strokes rs small burr is starting to show on middle of blade only, 20 strokes ls, 20 strokes rs little more is showing of burr, 20 strokes ls almost half of edge is burring, 20 strokes rs, 20 strokes ls getting close to a full burr, 10 strokes rs, 10 strokes ls 10 strokes rs, 10 strokes ls almost full burr 5 strokes rs, 5 strokes ls 5 strokes full burr, 5 strokes ls full burr now do 1 per side checking for burr on both sides after each stroke. Remove by alternating after each stroke. I personally will raise the angle for a few alternating strokes to remove the burr then do a few more at the lower angle. The number of strokes and number of times you may have to switch to get a burr will most likely be very different than this. On one knife it may only take one round and on another it may take 100 times.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top