Hawkbills!!!!

Dr.Lathe

Dr.Lathe

Joined
Aug 4, 1999
Messages
2,596
I would like to hear everyones ideas on Hawkbills! What's your favorite, least favorite, Pros-Cons, design ideas, size considerations, ETC....
I'm thinking about making a fixed blade first but please include folders too.
Thanks,
Neil

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Just updated 10/31!! New Knives, New Pics!!!
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Meeting/5520/index.html

 
I like my Hawkbills! very much.
For serrated, I have a Merlin.
For plain edge, a Kershaw Talon.
The Merlin is now my in the car "just-in-case" knife.
The Talon or the Merlin sometimes ride in my front pocket when I'm feeling like something different or I'm working in the yard. They are a great small limb and "woody" weed trimmer.

These knives' do have their limitations though.

1.You can't skin squat with them.
2.Whatever your cutting has to be "fed" into that reverse curved belly.
3.The inward curve kind of hampers a lot of slicing that one would normally do with an outward curving knife belly.

Advantages are:
1. Tis a great ripping knife.
2. Things that are fed into that reverse curve don't stand a chance. They are gonna get cut.
3. The acute point on a Hawkbill! is a great splinter picker.
4. That acutely sharp point is a great penetrator.

I'm sure there are more pro's and con's but I'm trying to watch "Dante's Peak" as I'm typing and this is just not working out. The movie is too exciting to concentrate on this sooo I'm gonna watch the movie. Seee Yaa!

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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.


 
hawkbills? Errr....not very usefull for utility chores IMHO but excellent for self-defense! The reverse curve will bite in like a HUGE serration and cut whatever in it's way.(have to be very sharp though...)
The MT's version of Kestral and Vector are good examples, but i would op. for a larger blade though. Some where between 3.5" to 4" would be just nice.
Are you building one? Let me know? Thanks.

[This message has been edited by keninshiro (edited 07 November 1999).]
 
I like them too! The fixed blade hawkbill might be an interesting idea, and truth be told, I had drawn up a sketch to grind one at a later date. My favorites in this genre are the Spyderco Matriarch, Civilian, Elishewitz Parrot Beak, and the various older models made in Sheffield, and New York State (among other places).

No additional strengths or weaknesses of this blade to cover, as this was well-described already. I remain a loyal hawkbill user and fan.
 
For most of my utility uses,a good tanto's secondary tip gives me the controlled penetration of a hawkbill, plus has a point and is easier to sharpen without the recurved edge.But there are some things a true hawkbill does better than anything, like when you don't want a stabbing point to get in the way for one.
m
 
After taking a look in the world inhabited by non-knife nuts, I noticed that there are just a few examples of hawkbill blades. Most of them have to do with gardening/farming/harvesting. The small ones are the pruning knives, the big ones sickles and scythes. All of them require a pulling or rotating motion to cut. The big advantage of the bend blade is that it keeps the stuff you want to cut together. Ideal for flexible fibers like grass, vines, roses, etc. You don’t need any kind of supportive medium (like a board) to make a cut.

Hawkbills used as weapons existed in medieval Europe and Japan. In Japan it was a sickle which had a chain at the end of the handle. On the other end of the chain was a metal ball. The warrior tried to entangle the opponent in the chain and do harm with the sickle. The whole thing probably a result of the laws which didn’t allow non-Samurais to bear swords. In Europe it was usually part of a halberd. Less a sharp blade but more like a hook and used to pull people of their horses. Emphasis here again on the pulling and trapping motion.

The major disadvantage of a hawkbill used as a weapon it in my opinion the fact that the blade can get caught up easily and the whole knife been dislodged in a flash. Any tough medium - may it be clothes or bones - can stop the blade and trap the knife in which case you are without your weapon. I think that’s the reason their use was very limited.
 
I really have no use for them. I prefer to cut through material in a controlled manner, and do not choose my tools with an eye towards their use as a potential weapon.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA


 
Actually hawkbills were first a utility blade. It depends on the chore that you are doing but for some jobs the hawkbill is the best. One example is the linoleum cutter. Anyway my favorite tactical hawkbill is by Andre deViliers his operator the blade profile is perfect. It is not too extreme as many makers do. Extreme is ok for work but bad for combat.
 
Ralph,
I would like to see that "pull the man from the horse" device in action. They certainly played HARDBALL back in those days!!!!
Coyote,
Do you have any pics or links that show that deViliers knife??
The last one I made probably had too much hook, It's still hanging in the shop waiting for a sheath that will handle the big curve. I've seen the Farid folder. His knives are nice and solid but the Hawkbill model seems useless to me. My wife's Kestrel is also very well made but it's small and only gives the illusion of being a Hawkbill. It has almost no curve to the blade at all!
My thoughts are to do a fixed blade about the size and curvature of the Civilian with a heavier blade and a stronger point. The first ones would be without serrations.
Kenninshiro, Yes I'm going to make some!
Thanks everyone, as always, I respect and value all of your input!
Neil

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Just updated 10/31!! New Knives, New Pics!!!
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Meeting/5520/index.html

 
Dr. Lathe go to the International Knife Directory and look under custom makers and then tactical you will find Andre there. If you don't I will look up the exact web site. If you make a fixed version like his I would be interested in buying if we can work out size and handle and carry criteria. I have always wanted a fixed blade to match. I personally think that the civilian is too extreme in that you lose the ability to thrust effectively with it unlike the de Viliers.
 
Coyote,
I found Andre's website but I couldn't get several of his pages to load, inluding, Tactical Folders. I'll try later and see what happens.
After several sketches, it seems that there is a fine line with the Hawkbills, that makes them good slashers and useless thrusters. I came up with one iteresting drawing. It's similar to the MT vector! It has a Hawkbill blade that runs in to a Tanto point!! The drawing looks wild, I'm not shure how a finished knife would function!!
Neil

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Just updated 10/31!! New Knives, New Pics!!!
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Meeting/5520/index.html

 
Coyote,
AHHHHH the Operator MK2!!! Nice, Nice. I think I will just bag the idea of making a Hawkbill and buy one of those!!!! NOT!! I want to do a fixed blade. His other Tactical Folders look wild also.
I see what you mean about a functional point. Maybe the perfect design would have a curved blade that still allows a point to be located close to or almost inline with the handle??
Thanks for the info, that deViliers pic has the wheels turning again!
Neil

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Just updated 10/31!! New Knives, New Pics!!!
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Meeting/5520/index.html



[This message has been edited by Dr.Lathe (edited 07 November 1999).]
 
Dr Lathe yes I think that the point should be inline. My operator is. Let me know if you build a fixed blade. I have some ideas of my own on the subject Im just not a builder yet. His is the last tactical folder I would get rid of. It hits very hard and bites very deep. I rank it up there with blade rigger fixed blades.
 
I forgot to mention to you to check out Greco's version of HB. The pic. can be found in Hammerhead Tactical Knives under concealed blades. The point is pretty much in-line. I think the curve should not be too extreme as it will "catch" on too much to whatever you're trying to cut as mention by a fellow member above. The MT's Kestral is alright but i agree it is not enough. I'm interested in building one, are you interested?
 
Dr. Lathe,
I think you should have a look at a Kershaw Talon.
The point is in line and it is most definately an effective stabbing type tool.
It would work extremely well in a fix blade format as the inward curve is more gentle than you would find on a Merlin or Civilian. As a slasher they excel, but, as a stabber you can flat forget about that. The Talon's profile has solved that problem without sacrificing the outstanding slashing ability inherent in this particular sub-species of blade.
I also believe that a neck knife size blade in this format would sell as there does not seem to be many choices out there for Hawkbill! type NK's and this type of blade is rather useful for utility and possibly defense applications. Provide a multi-carry sheathing system for those who want options, and it'll rock!

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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.


 
My #2 daily carry knife is a Spyderco Civilian. Originally purchased for its "Helter Skelter" sadistic shock appeal, I have found it has more daily utility value than I ever expected. I do a certain amount of packaging and its very useful in cutting boxes down to exact size from the inside. It can also be used efficiantly to cut rags, just fold them over the blade and pull the blade away. If I were a cop or EMT, it would be my 1st choice to cut away seatbelts.

It seems to me that hawkbills would have a valid psywar effect in a street confrontation, equivalent to pulling out some kind of sadistic medical impliment.

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"The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes.
So do thinkers who cannot change their opinions;
they cease to think."
-NIETZSCHE
 
Over the past few days I've looked through about 100 Knife magazines and studied the lines of every Hawkbill I could find. A co-worker has a Kershaw Talon and is going to bring it to work for me tomrorow night.
I've laid down some design criteria that includes having the point inline with the handle.
Having plenty of grip including a pinky catch, even if it's small.
I would also like to make the grip comfortable for the "reverse grippers". Half the pictures of people holding Hawkbills showed them using the reverse grip!
Athough it would be easier grind and would make a stronger point, I don't want to do a chisel grind... at least on the first ones.
The first ones will be neck knife size. This will cut down the cost of refining the design!!
Tomorow I'll cut some aluminum templates and see how they look.
Thanks again for your thoughts,
Neil
By the way, I bought my Civilian for the same reason, PURE, MEAN LOOKING KNIFE!!

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Just updated 10/31!! New Knives, New Pics!!!
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Meeting/5520/index.html

 
A drawing and the execution of Scott Evans Plam-a-Hawk.
leo-palm.jpg

plam.jpg

 
Radarman,
That's a cool little knife!!! I blanked out two blades tonight. Tomorrow I'll be at the grinder. They are both Neck Knife size. My biggest problem is overcomming the urge to put too much curve in the blades! I like the look of the Palm a Hawk with the full curve. Most of the interest that has been expressed to me on this project is to keep the point inline with the handle for thrusting ability. I guess I can do more than one design!
Neil

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Just updated 10/31!! New Knives, New Pics!!!
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Meeting/5520/index.html

 
DR. Lathe, In my opinion the only usefull blade for defensive use in the hawkbill design must have a very short blade, say 1 to 2 inches. If you can hold the handle you could do masssive harm with this blade size. With a longer blade the knife tends to stop or hang up on whatever medium you are trying to slice whereas a knife with belly would keep going. I do relize they do make a good utility knife with many uses with a longer blade. Bu the way the emerson la griffe rules as a defensive hawkbill and so easy to hide. Just my humble opinion of course.

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janefromnc

walker
 
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