Heat Treating 5160...

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Oct 16, 2013
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5
Hey guys, first post. I've glanced around and I haven't seen this answered exactly, but if I've missed it, please shoot me over towards that thread. Anyway.

I've just gotten started on my first knife project, and I settled on 5160 steel. I just wanted to know the best method of heat treating. I've seen a bunch of different answers pop up all over the place--I read that Bob Loveless used a propane torch, but other people talk about how they had to set up forges. I figure, since I'm just doing stock removal, not forging, shouldn't a propane torch be sufficient?

Thanks for all the help!
 
A propane torch will work, but, it is not optimum. 5160 has a bit of chrome in it and will benefit from a short soak at 1525f. With a propane torch it is difficult to get very much steel to 1525f (a weed burner maybe) and even more difficult to have the entire blade or even just the entire edge area at this temp. Holding it there for 10-15 minutes almost impossible. You can use a torch along the spine area letting the color run to the edge and keep checking with a magnet when the magnet doesn't stick go another couple shades of red and then quench. It will harden, how well is another question. A small forge is not that difficult to make. Search on 2 brick forge or coffee can forge. These are not optimum either as it is difficult even with these to keep the temp correct and even though out, (moving the blade in and out helps) but way better than just a propane torch. Search for forge muffle also.

The main difference between forging and stock removal as far as HT goes is stock removal doesn't require normalization while forging does. But, even if the steel is in a perfect condition for hardening, good temperature control is required for the best result.

Sure guys like Bob Loveless could and can do an very good job without a controlled oven. Just took them MANY knives and years of experience to get there.
 
Here is a torch that will get you to the right temperature real fast, it hooks up to a gas grill tank, I played around with my roofing torch when I first got started and I had zero problem getting to and holding non-magnetic

problem is its a 2 man operation one to hold the torch and one to hold the knife and tongs

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/350687500172?lpid=82
 
Thanks! Looks like the coffee can is the way to go--I've already got the torch, after all. Appreciate the help!
 
Okay, one last question (for now). My father has a big propane heater (big old stove, multiple jets) for his home-brewing. Think that would work?
 
Most likely , NO.But just in case ,have you got any pics of the heater.We like to see pics.
Eddie
 
I would be interested in seeing the heater ,even if it cant be used for knife making.It might keep you warm while you work on some knives.
Eddie
 
Okay, I've gone through the heat treating process...as to how WELL I've done, I have absolutely no idea. It didn't warp or crack, which tells me either A) I didn't get it hot enough or B) I'm God's gift to knife making. Since I don't think it's the second one, I look forward to the knife breaking when I try to put some stress on it. Ah well, I'll know for next time.

I did get some pictures, but as of now, I'm having trouble getting them off of my phone. If it turns out anyone wants to see them, I'll look into getting them off. In the meantime, I ended up going with a pseudo-coffee can forge, using a grill chimney instead of a coffee can. I lined the inside with plaster of Paris to cut down on the interior diameter, then loaded it up with ceramic briquettes and a blowtorch. I think it was too windy to really get the heat I wanted, so next time I'll work a little harder to brick off the ends. But all told, I think it went pretty well. Now if I can get the wood sanded down to the scales I want, I'll be in business!

Thanks for everyone's help. I hope to be around here again soon.
 
Is the blade all scale ? Is it a silvery grey color under the scale. Most often when it looks like that you got it hard. At least for me anyway.
 
Here is a torch that will get you to the right temperature real fast, it hooks up to a gas grill tank, I played around with my roofing torch when I first got started and I had zero problem getting to and holding non-magnetic

problem is its a 2 man operation one to hold the torch and one to hold the knife and tongs

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/350687500172?lpid=82


Not to Hijack the thread, but does anyone know if this torch could be feasibly used as a burner for either the coffee cab or the two brick forge?
 
Just ordered one for a coffee can forge build. If it works i'll post pics for the OP's consideration.
 
I am just started cutting out my next knife...its 5160. I am having a hard time finding 1084 or 1080.
I have read several threads from here and another forum. Taking the steel to 1600....then 1550...then 1500....then quenching at 1525.
Read tripple quench...water quench ect. I was about ready to just get another piece of steel.
Over on a different forum before clicking on this thread....they were just saying to bring it to critical...edge quench it and call it a day.
Steel savers above posts says heat soak at 1525....I assume then just let air cool. Thats refereed to as normalizing isnt it??
If what Steel Saver says will work fine.....I will finish cutting it out.
Btw whats the best value on a forge friendly thermometer ?
 
I must be in the right place....pretty much every time I google a question this forum is at the top of the list.
I guess I could google it again and bounce the thread that recommends putting it in 400* oil for two hours after the quench.
What I am reading is all over the place. I would just bag it and go try and find an easier steel but I have a bunch of leaf springs off my boat I was hoping to use up.
I assume they are 5160. I way green to all of this. When Steel saver said "soak" Does that just mean hold the knife at that temp for a while before quenching it?
Or is he talking normalizing the steel? If any of ya are in the slc area and want some spring steel I have more that I will ever use.
 
You can assume it's 5160...but it may not be. Let's just hope it is, and talk about 5160 heat treatment. You are using a forge, correct? That's not ideal for heat treatment, but with 5160, you can get away with it, because 5160 is relatively simple to HT. This is what I would do (quenching in 400°F oil is not needed at all, that is a particular sort of HT that is not necessary, but to do it would require an oil with a flash point above 400°F). For 5160, quench oil can be AAA or similar medium speed oil, and canola warmed to 130°F works very well, so if you're not inclined to purchase the commercial quenchant (I would if I were going to be doing this much in the future), use the canola warmed up. Do you already have the knife cut out of the leaf? If not I would anneal the leaf spring, to make it soft, then cut the knife. Annealing (a simple anneal) 5160 would be to bring it up to ~1500F and then stick it in a bucket of wood ash/vermiculite/sand overnight. Or you can bring it up to ~1500F in your forge, and then turn the forge off and let it cool in the forge. I would NOT do that anneal with higher carbon steels, but for 5160 and 1084 it will work. If you've already cut the knife....forget the anneal. You need to normalize the steel first. It was a leaf spring in a previous life...we now want the phoenix to be reborn into a new creature. We need to "reset" the steel, so to speak, when coming from a leaf spring especially. That way we know exactly what we're working with going into the hardening/quench. Normalizing by definition is done only once, and is at 1600°F for this particular alloy. I would say soak at this temp for a few minutes, if you can with your forge. Air cool only. Normalizing is now complete, but we can refine the "grain" by "thermal cycles". The temps chosen are up to you, but you can do 1550F, then 1500F, then 1450F, all with air cooling only. You can change those temps around a bit, even doing 3 cycles at around 1500F. Up to you. I like to drop the temps myself each cycle. To harden, warm your canola oil to 130°F. Insert your blade (best to have some sort of scale/decarb protection like ATP641 coating) into your forge when it has settled at 1525°F (I would wait a little while and let the forge settle into that temperature, rather than inserting the blade as soon as it reaches that temp). If you can, soak the blade for 5 minutes, just to ensure a nice solution, and then quench in your oil. Be sure to agitate the blade up and down, but never side to side (warping). Once the blade has cooled to the oil temp, you can remove. Actually, if you detect a warp immediately after inserting into the oil, then you can straighten it as it falls in temperature down to ~400°F with gloved hands, then back into the oil until it cools to oil temp. Once cooled to room temp, you can check the hardness with a file skate test (which is not an end all be all test...but can tell us if we at least hardened it). Watch out for the decarb layer that is/might be on the steel surface. This will fool you into thinking your attempt was a failure. It will feel like soft steel, and it soft, but only on the very surface. File a little more, and you should reach hard steel underneath. Scale is the hard black stuff (Carbon) that came out of the steels surface (causing the carbon depleted layer...decarb). For tempering, there are differing opinions on time, but I like to do 2 hours each cycle, for at least 2 cycles, no more than 3. Some will temper only 1 hour, but I'll do 2. Maybe overkill, but certainly will not hurt anything. I'm not too familiar with 5160 temper numbers, but going by some charts (5160 temper charts are all over the place, take a look online), 300°f is ~63HRC, 350°F is ~61HRC, 400°F is ~60HRC, 450°F~58HRC. I would stay at or above 60HRC with 5160. No need to edge quench this steel. It's very tough already, and a fully hardened blade in this steel is very very tough. No need to edge quench and leave a soft spine. If you wanted a softer spine, best way is to fully harden then draw back the spine using a torch. But really not needed at all. No need to triple quench this steel, either. You can, but not needed if all was done right the first go around. Often when people triple quench, they are only putting in solution a small amount of carbon each quench. If you can control the forge temp accurately, and allow the steel to soak for maybe 5 minutes or so, you can make an excellent blade that is as it should be. Hopefully that will help get you started. 5160 is a fairly simple steel, and does not have excess carbon that needs special attention. It is relatively forgiving in HT, and even less than optimal equipment can produce a good knife.
 
Thank you for the detailed reply. My post may have been a little confusing....the steel I am working with is a bar of flat 5160. I also have some leaf springs I may try to use at a later date.
My first blade I hardened with a weed burner and a make shift forge from some cinder blocks.
Tomorrow I am heading out to get some fire brick and some refractory cement and some angle iron to attempt to make a better forge. Also gonna get some kind of muffle.
I plan on kind of angling the flame to the side and up....although most of the home grown brick forges I have seen on you tube have the flame blowing straight down.
I have partially cut our the blade...was thinking I would normalize before I grind, that way if things go south I am not out all the time.
As far as the quench I am using a crock pot and canola oil.
The thermal cycling concerns me because I dont think I will ever get the 50* drop between dealio right. If I am gonna mess that up am I better off not doing it at all??
I would like to try a hamon...but have read this isnt the best steel to do it with.
 
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