Heat Treating: DIY or Have it Done Professionally?

T

T.O. Rye

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Feb 9, 2014
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I've been researching HT options recently, and I've noticed that quite a few knifemakers farm out the HT process as opposed to doing it themselves. Any thoughts on which is better in the long run?
 
In the long run, if it's going to have my mark on it, I want to know how it's done. I figure outsourcing HT is kind of like using a calculator. Sometimes it's a good idea, but you'd better know how to do the math first. Learning to HT yourself is part of the process.
 
Jason Fry said:
In the long run, if it's going to have my mark on it, I want to know how it's done. I figure outsourcing HT is kind of like using a calculator. Sometimes it's a good idea, but you'd better know how to do the math first. Learning to HT yourself is part of the process.
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Well said Jason
Ken.
 
I have a Paragon heat oven, and I heat treat my Damascus and forged knives. But, the more complicated steels like ATS-34, CPM 154, etc. I have always sent to Paul Bos Heat Treating. They have the equipment and experience to do a top notch job. They also do a sub zero quench. The blades have always come back straight, scale free, and they Rockwell test each blade after heat treat.
Some steels get a bad rap by knifemakers who try to heat treat their knives, and don't do a good job. Awhile back a knifemaker sent me a blade he had heat treated. His knives were not holding a good edge and he wanted me to use my Rockwell tester to check the hardness. The hardness was in the low 40's. He claimed he was doing everything right with his heat treating, but he evidently wasn't.
 
I send mine out for heat treat because if it has my name on it i want it to perform it's best. I can do 1084 with good results, but don't have a digital kiln or cryo setup to do my stainless anyway. For me I figured that a kiln at 1500 bucks up here in Canada isn't worth it yet since it only costs about 10 bucks a blade to send them off. At ten bucks a blade, I would have to make 150 knives just to pay for the kiln and that doesn't include the electricity it would use or the other materials needed like stainless foil and such. Not to mention the cost of purchasing my own hardness tester.
 
I have three HT ovens and several HT capable forges....I send out the blades I want the HT to be dead right on. That is most stainless blades, high alloy blades, and ones with difficult geometry.

That said, learning to HT is important. Learning what is happening during HT and how it is controlled is even more important.

In the beginning learn how to make knives. After those skills are refined, learn HT.
 
I am in the camp with Jason Fry. I think if you should be doing your own heat treat. Of the 50 or so knives that I have made 4-5 were not heat treated by me. Stacy did my first. If the pros can do heat treat the blade, so can you.

But thats just how I feel about it.
 
I'm still undecided at this point, but just out of curiosity what are some of the professional HT companies that you have had good service from, and how much (roughly) will it cost to have the process done by these companies?
 
T.O. Rye said:
I'm still undecided at this point, but just out of curiosity what are some of the professional HT companies that you have had good service from, and how much (roughly) will it cost to have the process done by these companies?
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I have a friend that sends his knives out to Peter's Heat treating. But I don't know the price. I think it wasn't bad if you were doing batches of like 20 knives at a time for ~ $100 maybe. Don't quote me on that...
 
Learning as much as possible about HT is critical to understanding how knives work, no question about that. :thumbup:

TheWeatherman said:
If the pros can do heat treat the blade, so can you.
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Well... maybe. For a couple blades here and there, sure, no problem. Well.... maybe again. It depends a lot on if you're going by an industry standard protocol and hoping your equipment is calibrated properly or really putting the time in to make sure everything is right for your application.

The pros can afford to spread out the cost of Rockwell testing, large vacuum ovens, LN cryo, multiple temper cycles, electricity etc. over many many customers. For me to do batches of 12-25 blades in my 14" Paragon several times a year would add a huge amount to my costs and prices, and take up a lot of time.

For me to lay out the $$$ for all that equipment would set me back several months... I simply can't afford that kind of investment. A hobbyist with a steady paycheck coming from elsewhere might feel differently about laying out that kind of cash.

I have yet to have a client turn down a custom bid or decline to buy a finished knife because it was HT'ed by Peters' instead of little ol' me. In fact, to the only ones that have even mentioned it, it's considered a very positive selling point.
 
james terrio said:
Learning as much as possible about HT is critical to understanding how knives work, no question about that. :thumbup:



Well... maybe. For a couple blades here and there, sure, no problem.

The pros can afford to spread out the cost of Rockwell testing, large vacuum ovens, LN cryo, multiple temper cycles, electricity etc. over many many customers. For me to do batches of 12-25 blades in my 14" Paragon several times a year would add a huge amount to my costs and prices, and take up a lot of time.

For me to lay out the $$$ for all that equipment would set me back several months... I simply can't afford that kind of investment. A hobbyist with a steady paycheck coming from elsewhere might feel differently about laying out that kind of cash.

I have yet to have a client turn down a custom bid or decline to buy a finished knife because it was HT'ed by Peters' instead of little ol' me. In fact, to the only ones that have even mentioned it, it's considered a very positive selling point.
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James - you make a good point. I am not a full time maker, more of a super part time/hobbiest. Maybe my view would change if it had to be a full time maker. It is hard to beat $100 for 20 blades, if I do remember correctly. I have not heat treated any stainless yet, I am working on getting some Al plates that make me happy.

James and Stacy, I would be interested in hearing what makes the difference between heat treating a mono steel blade say ( 1084, 1095, O-1 etc ) and switching over to doing stainless, not taking into account the electricity? You can purchase foil in quantity so that it costs less than a $1 a knife I have been told, you can purchase a dewar and LN. You do all the testing to the mono steel blades so that they are good knives, why wouldn't you do the same with the stainless blades? Part of the reason stainless blades cost more is because you have extra costs in the process right?

I am just at a different point I guess so I would like to understand now and have more clearification, it would probably help the OP as well.
 
We do all our own though we have invested the money in the equipment to be able to do it right. Nothing wrong with sending it out at all its a good idea in many cases but I was raised in a woodworking shop/farm and I have an itch to do everything myself. So I fronted the money for a good kiln,quench plates(bought a bulk batch of good foil) and proper quench oils like parks50. I make sure I test everything and intensely research the heat treat of any steel Im working with..Its just a personal thing but the heat treat is one of the fun parts for me. Im still in the mindset of I like doing, I want to do it and I know I can do it right so I am..Im not trying to save money with heat treat because I know Im not :D
 
I agree that it is important to learn, but, frankly, I really haven't. I send mine out to Peters and find them to be really great and reasonable in price. Honestly though, I would like to learn, but having the equipment in my basement shop seems...irresponsible. The last thing I need is a fire down there. The dust is tough enough.
 
TheWeatherman said:
James and Stacy, I would be interested in hearing what makes the difference between heat treating a mono steel blade say ( 1084, 1095, O-1 etc ) and switching over to doing stainless...
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Stainless steels are "mono" steels... simply meaning they're the same thing all the way through the bar. You're referring to low-alloy steels ;)

People who make damascus, san mai, and other laminated steels will select them so they have similar characteristics for HT, whether they're stainless or not.

Anyway, Stacy has a good write-up on your question in the stickies. In a nutshell, high-alloy steels require higher temperatures, longer soaks, more precision, and so forth. You can "get by" pretty well HT'ing 1084 with a campfire, bucket of canola oil and tempering in your kitchen oven... doing that with CPM-154 would be a waste of time and steel.
 
James - I understand that. But if you had the tools and you can do it in the long run wouldn't you save money. To me heat treating is the same.
 
You MIGHT save money in the long run. It really depends on the steels though. If you work with simple carbon steels and you only make smallish blades, then sure. I work with CPM 3V, and make blades 24-36" OAL. The HT for my purposes seems to be a good bit more complicated than something like 1084, etc, and heat treating a blade that long presents its own challenges. As soon as stuff involving cryo and plate quenching and salt baths etc become necessary, I'd rather let someone else do it. Brad Stallsmith has forgotten more than I'll probably ever know about heat treating, and the heat treat protocols he and Dan Keffeler worked out for 3V have many years and blades worth of testing behind them. Sure, maybe in 45 years with thousands of dollars invested in equipment and ruined blades from testing, I could come up with something close in quality. But why? I'm certainly planning on eventually getting my own heat treating equipment eventually, but until I feel that I can come close to the quality I get from Peters, anything I send to a customer will be professionally done. If I do it any other way, sure, I'm getting closer to sole authorship, but the overall quality of the product just won't be as good. Why put your name on an inferior product?
 
I am just playing devil's advocate here, because I think this is a good question and good thoughts. I dont' want to start a flame war, I am just really really curious about this now. T.O. Rye GREAT QUESTION AND THREAD! :D

So from the above logic:
If I can't heat treat as good as Brad from Peter's then there is no reason for me to learn and heat treat my own blades, mono or stainless steels? Also why would a Journeyman smith or a Master smith heat treat their own blades that they make to sell, ( excluding test knives ), if what you need to do it right is really expensive equipment?
 
If I did not have the proper equipment, I would have no problem with sending my blades to a reputable firm like Peter's.

With the right equipment and adequate knowledge, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to get fantastic results at home.
 
TheWeatherman said:
I am just playing devil's advocate here, because I think this is a good question and good thoughts. I dont' want to start a flame war, I am just really really curious about this now. T.O. Rye GREAT QUESTION AND THREAD! :D

So from the above logic:
If I can't heat treat as good as Brad from Peter's then there is no reason for me to learn and heat treat my own blades, mono or stainless steels? Also why would a Journeyman smith or a Master smith heat treat their own blades that they make to sell, ( excluding test knives ), if what you need to do it right is really expensive equipment?
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You're missing an important part of my point, I think, specifically having to do with the second sentence of my previous post. As far as I see it, the difference comes in what's needed to do the heat treat. I don't see that many people doing their own heat treat on some of the more complicated steels. Simple alloys and your basic high carbon steels that are feasible to do at home, sure. Go for it. It's worth doing that on your own because it CAN be done feasibly at home without a significant quality reduction. But some steels, even master smiths seem to send out for heat treat.

You heat treat your own stuff either because you're invested in sole authorship, or you want to save money (and that becomes a lot less likely with more expensive and complicated steels--not only are the steels more complicated, the amount of equipment needed and the level of precision needed is way more intensive), or, more than likely, because you love the process. You love working hot metal. You love the hiss when it enters the quench. You love the metallurgical changes that it undergoes, and you love the idea of experimenting to improve the quality of your work. But that's a lot more feasible with some steels than others, and a lot more cost effective as well. I wouldn't feel bad about ruining an O1 or 52100 blade, for instance, because the steel cost is minimal. 3V, or I imagine M390 or Elmax, I'd feel bad about ruining, and I suspect the odds of me being able to do a good job successfully at home are pretty significantly worse than the more forgiving simpler steels. 1084, you can do in a simple fire by color. Good luck getting a decent 3V blade in the same fashion.
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
You heat treat your own stuff either because ... you love the process. You love working hot metal. You love the hiss when it enters the quench. You love the metallurgical changes that it undergoes, and you love the idea of experimenting to improve the quality of your work.
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You hit me on the head right there. I love SCIENCE, science is fun to me. To be able to model and outcome and produce a product because I can think through a problem and imagine the change excites me.

I didn't miss your point in your second sentence. I don't think the steel matters and it depends what the OP meant by the "long run". Sending out is fine, but to be known as the guy who can actually do it right and has the knowledge to do it right in my mind is more beneficial in the long run. You aren't going to get it right the first time, but with the right research, tools, and know how you can get close. And if you never do it the first time you will never get it right because you wont try.

I don't see a problem with sending blades out to be heat treat. "Sole authorship" is not a big deal to me, I don't smelt anything, I don't go out and find my own wood, and I don't stabilize my own wood ( I have tried and I wasn't impressed with the woods that I wanted to do ). If it takes sending out a blade to get heat treated for some one to get started and continue with this great craft I say do what you need to do.

However, because you can control for the majority of the variables at home, Temperature with a kiln, timing with a watch, oxidation with either foil or anti-scale compound and other things, quenching media ( Al plates or quenchant ), liquid nitrogen or dry ice and ( acetone among other things ), and almost all the steels have some kind of data sheet, it is feasible to get the same results as a "professional". But you are right, the process can get botched due to the many different variables and you will take a hit to the pocket book.

Having said that, I am not a full time professional knife maker, and I don't need to heat treat 20, 40, 60, or a 100 blades at a time. The time it takes to do heat treating correctly just sucks, out of all honesty. But could be done and I wouldn't let someone tell me I couldn't or shouldn't do it, when other people do.

Money, time, and dedication are needed.
 
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