Heat treating with a torch

S

smorgan345

Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
242
Hey guys, I am planning on hardening and tempering an O1 knife with a blow torch using magnets and watching for color changes in the steel. How realistic is this? What sort of torch is ideal? I've got some fire bricks to help contain the heat. I'm just wondering if I should try this or just send the blades out for heat treating untill I can afford an oven? Thanks in advance for making this such a great resource for questions. I don't know how people got started before without it.
 
If you have the torch and the firebricks, then you are just one assembly step away from a simple gas forge...
Why don't do it the proper way, then?:confused:
 
You'll need a bit more but you can basically do it with a one or 2 brick forge. However O1 requires a bit more of a soak at a specific temp than just getting non magnetic for a proper hardening. I went through the same though process when I was planning on making my first with wanting to do everything myself. After some mixed advice from some members here I decided for me, farming out the HT was a better idea. Especially after seeing the amount of work that actually goes into making a somewhat nice looking knife. I didn't want all that work ruined on a bad HT.

Not saying you shouldn't do it, just saying if you want to. Spend a bit of time researching what the proper soak and quench for O1 is to get the most out of the steel. You can probably get close with what you're looking to do, but if you want to get the absolute best out of it. I would suggest either doing a bit more research and determining how easily you think you'll be able to HT and temper it. Then decide if you want to go that route or farm it out to a professional. Chances are it's not going to be your last knife once the bug bites you, so you'll have plenty of time to do everything in house also.
 
Alarion said:
If you have the torch and the firebricks, then you are just one assembly step away from a simple gas forge...
Why don't do it the proper way, then?:confused:
Click to expand...

What is the proper way? I am new. Are you refering to a real gas forge? I thought about buying one but I figured I'd be in the same boat, I won't really know what temp the blade is? Or do the gas forges have temperature control?
 
Fletch Helical said:
You'll need a bit more but you can basically do it with a one or 2 brick forge. However O1 requires a bit more of a soak at a specific temp than just getting non magnetic for a proper hardening. I went through the same though process when I was planning on making my first with wanting to do everything myself. After some mixed advice from some members here I decided for me, farming out the HT was a better idea. Especially after seeing the amount of work that actually goes into making a somewhat nice looking knife. I didn't want all that work ruined on a bad HT.

Not saying you shouldn't do it, just saying if you want to. Spend a bit of time researching what the proper soak and quench for O1 is to get the most out of the steel. You can probably get close with what you're looking to do, but if you want to get the absolute best out of it. I would suggest either doing a bit more research and determining how easily you think you'll be able to HT and temper it. Then decide if you want to go that route or farm it out to a professional. Chances are it's not going to be your last knife once the bug bites you, so you'll have plenty of time to do everything in house also.
Click to expand...

Where did you send your blades off for heat treating? How much did it cost? When you say soak, does that mean it has to hang at a certain temp for a certain amount of time before I quench it in the oil?
 
For less than $100 and possibly less than $50 you can get a thermocouple and readout. This will tell you how hot it is in the forge. You can control it by hand if you do not want to set up a solenoid and relay. I am able to set up my forge to hold at 1500 with little or no adjustments and no solenoid. O1 should be soaked at temp for around 10minutes. It is hard to do with a torch.
 
smorgan345 said:
Where did you send your blades off for heat treating? How much did it cost? When you say soak, does that mean it has to hang at a certain temp for a certain amount of time before I quench it in the oil?
Click to expand...


The soak is the time is the time the steel is held at a temp. I had a member here who was generous enough to treat my first blade for me. After that I sent my next ones off to Peter's Heat treat http://petersheattreat.com/ Get in touch with Brad there he heads up the knife division. I sent him some Stainless and I believe it cost somewhere around $18 or so a blade plus a few bucks shipping back to me.
 
Fill out your profile, man... if this is your first knife, we'll take care of you one way or another. Knowing where you are (and WHO you are!) is a good start!
 
Just what they said.
Also, start with simpler steels.
1075 can be heat treated with medieval technology and is quite forgiving.
Almost any decent carbon steel will make a damn good blade if properly heat treated. It's no use choosing some wondersteel if you mess up the HT because it requires strict observance of tight parameters.
The trick is choosing the steels you can work with your equipment. I use a hand cranked coal forge for most of my work, and use just W1/W2, 5160, C70 (basically a local name for 1075) and K720, which is as complex as I dare, and brobably already beyond what my equipment and I can reasonably hope to achieve.
 
Matthew Gregory said:
Fill out your profile, man... if this is your first knife, we'll take care of you one way or another. Knowing where you are (and WHO you are!) is a good start!
Click to expand...

What Matt said is the beginning of your journey in this particular part of this forum. You could be living 3 doors down from one of the many ABS Master Smiths or Journeyman Smiths that frequent this forum, or just down the road from me. There are stickies labeled "newbies good info here" and Kevin Cashen's "Working with the three steel types" that are an excellent place to start (yes I know a bunch of the links are broken, but there is still a lot of really relevant details there and one of the moderators is working on relinking the broken stuff when he has time)

We take care of people doing their first knife if they are sincere about learning

-Page
 
A C Richards said:
For less than $100 and possibly less than $50 you can get a thermocouple and readout. This will tell you how hot it is in the forge. You can control it by hand if you do not want to set up a solenoid and relay. I am able to set up my forge to hold at 1500 with little or no adjustments and no solenoid. O1 should be soaked at temp for around 10minutes. It is hard to do with a torch.
Click to expand...

this sounds like something that would be good for me. is there a tutorial somewhere on how to build one? I've ordered the fire bricks and they should be in within the next week or so. If you used this forge to harden, would you still temper with a torch? The book I read explains how to treat different parts of the blade for different effects. Tougher spine, harder edge....it seems with the forge or an oven for that matter, the whole knife would receive the same temper? thanks!
 
sunshadow said:
What Matt said is the beginning of your journey in this particular part of this forum. You could be living 3 doors down from one of the many ABS Master Smiths or Journeyman Smiths that frequent this forum, or just down the road from me. There are stickies labeled "newbies good info here" and Kevin Cashen's "Working with the three steel types" that are an excellent place to start (yes I know a bunch of the links are broken, but there is still a lot of really relevant details there and one of the moderators is working on relinking the broken stuff when he has time)

We take care of people doing their first knife if they are sincere about learning

-Page
Click to expand...

yes, that sticky is awesome. I have not gone through it all but have spent a good amount of time in there. some of the heat treating discussions are way over my head but I'm picking things up little by little. I have updated my profile too. thanks for your help.
 
Alarion said:
Just what they said.
Also, start with simpler steels.
1075 can be heat treated with medieval technology and is quite forgiving.
Almost any decent carbon steel will make a damn good blade if properly heat treated. It's no use choosing some wondersteel if you mess up the HT because it requires strict observance of tight parameters.
The trick is choosing the steels you can work with your equipment. I use a hand cranked coal forge for most of my work, and use just W1/W2, 5160, C70 (basically a local name for 1075) and K720, which is as complex as I dare, and brobably already beyond what my equipment and I can reasonably hope to achieve.
Click to expand...

I just picked O1 because I heard it was a good steel for beginners. I will use anything at this point. Do you think 1075 would be best? I have crude equipment. a drill press, files, jewelers saw, sandpaper, fire bricks on the way. I am going to start with stock removal and hopefully step up to forging in the future. I plan to get a coote grinder when I get the funds and next I was thinking about an oven but if a cheaper gas forge will work for heat treats I would just use that.
 
O1 is acceptable after heat treating with a torch, but you will be paying more for it and not getting as much in return compared to a simpler steel like 1075-1080. I kept overheating my O1 and warping the **** out of it. One blade had a 60 degree twist in it.

I think my biggest eye roll came when I saw a maker on youtube heating M2 high speed steel to nonmagnetic and quenching in cooking oil. :eek: I'm not saying you can't do it, but don't judge M2 based on your comparisons with a 1075 blade done the same way.
 
What would have been my first two knives are D2 KSO's (knife shaped objects) that sit on the bench unfinished because I tried to HT them with a torch at home. I thought "air hardening, that should be easy." After the fact, I did my due diligence reading here in the forums and figured out that there was no way I could manage the temp control and soak times with a torch. My next two went to Texas Knifemaker's supply for HT. I didn't try home HT again until I had a simple steel and specific instructions for using a torch. (5160 and Ed Fowler's book).

If you want your first knife to be a good one, do your research up front, and pick the right materials for what you PLAN to do, be it at home or sent off to a pro.

That said, either way you'll have the bug and then there is no turning back ;)

Matt
 
smorgan345 said:
I just picked O1 because I heard it was a good steel for beginners. I will use anything at this point. Do you think 1075 would be best? I have crude equipment. a drill press, files, jewelers saw, sandpaper, fire bricks on the way. I am going to start with stock removal and hopefully step up to forging in the future. I plan to get a coote grinder when I get the funds and next I was thinking about an oven but if a cheaper gas forge will work for heat treats I would just use that.
Click to expand...


O1 is definitely not an easy steel for beginners to heat treat properly with crude equipment. As noted already, O1 contains lots of alloy goodies and requires a soak at temp to dissolve all the alloys into solution. This is not easy to do in a forge, as temp control is hard to control and you can easily end up with grain growth.

My recommendation, given your equipment, is 1084/1080.
 
Danbo said:
O1 is definitely not an easy steel for beginners to heat treat properly with crude equipment. As noted already, O1 contains lots of alloy goodies and requires a soak at temp to dissolve all the alloys into solution. This is not easy to do in a forge, as temp control is hard to control and you can easily end up with grain growth.

My recommendation, given your equipment, is 1084/1080.
Click to expand...

Do you know where I can find this steel or 5160? Most web sites I have found carry other types but not these. Thanks for the input.
 
I just bought some 1080 from Admiral Steel. Great price even after shipping. You pay the same shipping for one five foot length as you do for a few. If you just want to try a piece first Texasknife.com has it.
 
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