heat treating

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Dec 3, 2009
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158
supposing that i can only heat 1095 to about 100 degrees below
non-magnetic and then quench in canola oil. would the result be better than not heat treating at all or is it just a waste of time?

sure would like to know if there any knife makers in the dfw area-especially one that is familiar with oil quenching.

thanks again and pardon my ignorance
 
If it's 100 degrees below non-magnetic I'm assuming your in the 1300 - 1400 range and NOT in the austenitizing range. This is bad! The steel cant form martensite if its not in the austenitizing temps (1450 and up). Kevin Cashen talks about this stuff in the Sticky's, very informative, they will explain it in MUCH more detail.

To answer your question, it's a waste of time.
 
If it's 100 degrees below non-magnetic I'm assuming your in the 1300 - 1400 range and NOT in the austenitizing range. This is bad! The steel cant form martensite if its not in the austenitizing temps (1450 and up). Kevin Cashen talks about this stuff in the Sticky's, very informative, they will explain it in MUCH more detail.

To answer your question, it's a waste of time.

On the flip side, is 100 over the austenitizing temp going to ruin it? Maybe cause those blisters a few have posted questions about? If 100 over isn't going to hurt it, at what temp will it start to blister and get ugly?
 
Is 100 over going to hurt it - NO. I know MS that HT with a torch and I know they get them 100 over but only for a short time.
 
There is a cushion above the austentizing temperature that you can exceed; however, it can change the amount of retained austenite after the quench in certain steels as well as the hardness.

For instance, for CPM154, the data sheet gives properties after oil quench from various temps. For 1900F, the as-quenched hardness is listed at 62. 1950F:61. 2000F:54. My understanding is that with higher temps, you will have more retained austenite, especially in higher alloy steels. For all those quench temps, if you cryo afterwards and thus reduce RA, you can expect somewhere around 63RC.

However, a very important thing to remember is that going too far above Austentizing temps will result in grain growth over time and thus a more brittle blade. It can happen very quickly once it starts. For steels with longer soaks, temperature control is very important to prevent this.

-nathan
 
A good temperature to austenitize 1095 is about 1500 F. It will become non magnetic considerably cooler than that.

1095 ~1400 won't do much. 1095 ~1600 can get very hard, but won't have particularly fine grain. Cracking during the quench becomes more of a problem at higher temperatures.

Blisters and burning won't be a big problem until you get well over 2000 - way too hot for 1095 unless you're welding it. Any steel that is overheated will need proper thermal cycles to correct grain issues. Any steel that actually becomes burnt (white hot, sparking) isn't going to be good for much.
 
The problem with back yard heat treatment directions is often the words -Non magnetic.
There are several stages the hot steel goes through on its way to the target temperature ( the proper temperature to austenitize the steel at).
First, it reaches Ac1. This is the beginning of the austenite stage.This happens at different temperatures ,depending on the steel type. For the eutectiod - 1080/1084 - it is at 1341F.
Next point where the steel becomes non-magnetic. All steel becomes non-mag at 1414F. This is a physical change and is not affected by metallurgy. That makes it a very usable temperature gauge when there is no other way to know the steel temp. However, this point is only good on the increase. Once passed, it is different on the way down.
Finally, you have the target temperature. This is the point where all the carbides and alloy ingredients can easily go into solution, but grain growth is still restricted. For basic carbon steels this is between 1450F and 1500F.

So, about 50-100F above non-magnetic is where you want the steel to be. A magnet, a good eye, and some experience will allow this to be done without fancy temp gauges, but it takes practice and time to learn it.

Above the target temperature, the grains grow rapidly, and the resulting structure of the blade will be severely compromised.

Hope this helps.
 
When you consider the process of recrystallization and grain growth you see that grains can’t really grow until total solution is achieved. So with a steel having more than .8% carbon more of it than is necessary will be in solution before the grains start to grow, making retained austenite and other issues a problem even before the dreaded grain growth. For this reason 1084 can handle 1500F but 1095 really should be heated to more around 1475F.

Contrary to what hypersensitive would-be internet warriors may perceive, the actual problem with low tech methods is relaying exactly how to do something to another by typing on a screen, or expecting somebody with less experience to be able to nail something that took an old-timer years to develop the eye for. If you can simply soak for 10 minutes at 1475F before quenching into a fast oil, followed by a 425F temper... well it is fairly easy to pass on the information for success. Non-magnetic is actually rather ephemeral or vague since most would have a hard time bringing the entire blade to 1414F simultaneously without the tools that would themselves negate the need for a magnet. And when people are intent on getting things just right despite reservations about their skill level they tend to be very literal about directions; I have given the magnet advice to people with very limited heat sources only to have to revisit the concept when they heated the blade while suspended by a magnet over a quench, assuming when the blade dropped it was just right.

First off, relax, being tense causes us to do things that are not in the best interest of the steel at temp. Slowly heat the steel nice and evenly until it begins to glow (in a dimly lit room), start checking with the magnet, but still remain relaxed, you and the steel are just taking a calm stroll through the austenitizing range.

From the sound of your past experience with the surface blemishes, you had bad atmosphere control, not heat issues. Heat only exacerbates a atmosphere problem that would be a problem even without over heating. If using a torch, use a larger tip with less oxygen, you are just heating not welding. If you are using a forge, build a brick tunnel over the fire to contain the heat and back off the air draft. No forging operation, even welding, ever requires the air blast wide open, if you are moving solid fuel pieces with the air, you have too much. Once again it should be a calm and tranquil tone with the impression that you have all the time in the world to get this done, despite the reality that it will only take a few minutes.

Carbon has to be put into play if it is going to harden your blade so below non-magnetic is useless. When just enough carbon is in solution to get the job done, enough is enough. So 100F above the Currie point is detrimental overkill. You want the Goldilocks zone so once the magnet stops sticking, work on getting the whole blade an single even color for a few seconds, this is the critical part. The magnet will stop sticking at around 1414F but if your fire is calm and steadily heating you should push it up 50F to 60F more in the effort of equalizing. At this point quench the blade.

I am with Stacy, oversimplified, “foolproof” methods such as the magnet always seem to leave out the most critical ingredient- the 10 to 20 freaking years of experience the guy telling you it is a piece of cake has in order to make that statement. If it were that easy we would all have ABS ratings and would have moved onto something that actually challenges us long ago.
 
If it's 100 degrees below non-magnetic I'm assuming your in the 1300 - 1400 range and NOT in the austenitizing range. This is bad! The steel cant form martensite if its not in the austenitizing temps (1450 and up). Kevin Cashen talks about this stuff in the Sticky's, very informative, they will explain it in MUCH more detail.

To answer your question, it's a waste of time.
I am very interested in this. Where can I find this?
 
When you consider the process of recrystallization and grain growth you see that grains can’t really grow until total solution is achieved. So with a steel having more than .8% carbon more of it than is necessary will be in solution before the grains start to grow, making retained austenite and other issues a problem even before the dreaded grain growth. For this reason 1084 can handle 1500F but 1095 really should be heated to more around 1475F.

Contrary to what hypersensitive would-be internet warriors may perceive, the actual problem with low tech methods is relaying exactly how to do something to another by typing on a screen, or expecting somebody with less experience to be able to nail something that took an old-timer years to develop the eye for. If you can simply soak for 10 minutes at 1475F before quenching into a fast oil, followed by a 425F temper... well it is fairly easy to pass on the information for success. Non-magnetic is actually rather ephemeral or vague since most would have a hard time bringing the entire blade to 1414F simultaneously without the tools that would themselves negate the need for a magnet. And when people are intent on getting things just right despite reservations about their skill level they tend to be very literal about directions; I have given the magnet advice to people with very limited heat sources only to have to revisit the concept when they heated the blade while suspended by a magnet over a quench, assuming when the blade dropped it was just right.

First off, relax, being tense causes us to do things that are not in the best interest of the steel at temp. Slowly heat the steel nice and evenly until it begins to glow (in a dimly lit room), start checking with the magnet, but still remain relaxed, you and the steel are just taking a calm stroll through the austenitizing range.

From the sound of your past experience with the surface blemishes, you had bad atmosphere control, not heat issues. Heat only exacerbates a atmosphere problem that would be a problem even without over heating. If using a torch, use a larger tip with less oxygen, you are just heating not welding. If you are using a forge, build a brick tunnel over the fire to contain the heat and back off the air draft. No forging operation, even welding, ever requires the air blast wide open, if you are moving solid fuel pieces with the air, you have too much. Once again it should be a calm and tranquil tone with the impression that you have all the time in the world to get this done, despite the reality that it will only take a few minutes.

Carbon has to be put into play if it is going to harden your blade so below non-magnetic is useless. When just enough carbon is in solution to get the job done, enough is enough. So 100F above the Currie point is detrimental overkill. You want the Goldilocks zone so once the magnet stops sticking, work on getting the whole blade an single even color for a few seconds, this is the critical part. The magnet will stop sticking at around 1414F but if your fire is calm and steadily heating you should push it up 50F to 60F more in the effort of equalizing. At this point quench the blade.

I am with Stacy, oversimplified, “foolproof” methods such as the magnet always seem to leave out the most critical ingredient- the 10 to 20 freaking years of experience the guy telling you it is a piece of cake has in order to make that statement. If it were that easy we would all have ABS ratings and would have moved onto something that actually challenges us long ago.
Is there a paper or treatise on this?
 
EnduringEagle,

In the Shop Talk Forum, look at the top of the thread list at the threads that have been "sticky'd". The threads entitled "The process and principles of quenching" and "Working the three steel types" are excellent reading with lots of good info from the learned Kevin Cashen and others.

--nathan
 
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