I've been looking at the Helle line-up for a while now, and I was wondering about the stainless they are using. I understand it is 12C27 at about 58 HRC. That Sandvik is the same steel Mora puts in the Companion for a fraction of the Helle price. From a distance, the steel is the same, the heat treat shouldn't be much better, so the price difference is just in presentation? Sure, Helle looks much better, but in use, Moras are excellent knives. Besides, why laminate that stainless? My companion has seen a lot of abuse, just like my bushcraft orange and the blade held up okay. Actually, being rather cheap, those two knives together with my companion carbon hd have seen some real abuse as opposed my pricier knives that I am reluctant to potentially mess up. So apart from ergonomics and estethics, is there something special about Helle blades?
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Helle stainless
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As far as the price on Helles, you are spending some on much better fit and finish, and materials (it adds up) nicer sheath, more design. As far as laminating, my understanding is that generally its a stainless layer over a high-carbon core, but I'm not sure what Helle is using for that. Mora used to do laminates, but dropped them due to price, so now its just either or. The laminate gives you some better qualities and I think allows for a more sturdy knife, as well as having the main part of the blade more corrosion resistant.
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Here are some notes I made about Helle's laminated steel some time ago, when I bought a Helle Eggen. Don't know if it's still true. I think their laminated blades are all stainless now, which makes me question why they even bother. "Helle knives are hand assembled in the remote village of Holmedal, Norway, population 500. The firm was established in 1932 by two brothers, and continues a tradition of fine materials and careful hand work. Most Helle blades are made of triple laminate stainless steel, a sandwich of tough stainless panels with a core of high carbon steel. It is especially made for Helle, and does not correspond to any of the standard types of steel. High carbon steel is tougher than stainless, easier to sharpen and holds a superior edge. For the technically minded, the composition of the high carbon steel core is: Carbon -0.67%, Silicon -0.70%, Sulphur -0.002%, Phosphorous -0.19%, Manganese 0.44%, Nickel -0.28%, Chromium -0.28%, Molybdenum -0.52%. The high carbon steel core is hardened to 58-59 HRC (Rockwell Scale). This is the harder part of the blade that holds the edge. The outside layers are tough 18/8 stainless, 18% chromium and 8% nickel. Together, this makes a blade that can be sharpened to a very fine razor edge, and yet is not brittle. It is also easier to re-sharpen than conventional knives because much of the steel being removed (the outer panels) is softer than standard cutlery steel. This type of blade will bend long before it would break. Most Helle blades also have the distinctive Scandinavian grind. This is a wide, flat bevel that runs to the edge. There is no secondary bevel as on other knives. This results in an exceptionally keen edge that is easy to sharpen without jigs or other gadgets. Simply lay the bevel flat on the hone. The hand-shaped handle is of Curly Arctic Birch."
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On January 8, 2002 I got an email from Svein Helle, regarding a question I had asked him about the composition of Helle's stainless steel. As Alberta Ed say it is "made of triple laminated Stainless steel". The composition he lists for the core is not stainless, with a Chromium about of-0.28%. The composition that Svein Helle sent me is exactly the same as Alberta Ed lists EXCEPT for Chromium, which Svein Helle listed at Cr: 14,25. John
That is entirely in line with what Helle says on their website: "The core is made of high alloy steel which gives it a lasting, razor-sharp edge. This harder layer cannot however exclude the threat of rust or breakage." High alloy, lasting edge and rust kind of describe high carbon at high hardness. However, over 14% Cr should prevent rusting under normal circumstances.
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"I think their laminated blades are all stainless now, which makes me question why they even bother."
Assume your thought is correct, and more than one Internet source says some Helle blades are three layers of stainless steel (but not Helle itself now), do you question why Fallkniven uses a lamination of different stainless steels? If you do, you could find out.
Brusletto still uses laminated steel of a carbon steel core and stainless steel outer layers.
"[T]he heat treat shouldn't be much better...."
Why not? Is it beyond possibility that the maker of a more expensive knife would use better heat treatment?
Assume your thought is correct, and more than one Internet source says some Helle blades are three layers of stainless steel (but not Helle itself now), do you question why Fallkniven uses a lamination of different stainless steels? If you do, you could find out.
Brusletto still uses laminated steel of a carbon steel core and stainless steel outer layers.
"[T]he heat treat shouldn't be much better...."
Why not? Is it beyond possibility that the maker of a more expensive knife would use better heat treatment?
Just looking at the composition above, it looks close to 12C27:
C 0.6 Si 0.4 Mn 0.4 P ≤0.025 S ≤0.010 Cr 13.5
(as given by Brisa)
The maximum hardness is given at 59HRC. (also Brisa).
I am no specialist, but 0.67 C is not very much and neither 59 HRC. Again, that looks like Mora.
As far as I know, Fallkniven laminates the blades because VG10 is brittle. I don't see why laminate 12C27.
C 0.6 Si 0.4 Mn 0.4 P ≤0.025 S ≤0.010 Cr 13.5
(as given by Brisa)
The maximum hardness is given at 59HRC. (also Brisa).
I am no specialist, but 0.67 C is not very much and neither 59 HRC. Again, that looks like Mora.
As far as I know, Fallkniven laminates the blades because VG10 is brittle. I don't see why laminate 12C27.
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I have a theory, might be bologna, but here goes. Each steel heat-treats differently, so in the laminate, you might be able to get a very hard core, without hardening the outer layer as much, thereby getting more flex and toughness. So even if you have all stainless, each grade might do something better.
Not to revive this thread, but to add a conclusion:
Santa was kind enough to read my letter and brought me a Helle Temagami! The knife is a beauty and sits in the hand very comfortably. The whole design is great. I have been watching this knife for a while and have a feeling that they cheaped out on the belt loop gradually - all they have now is one single rivet holding it together and attached to the sheath. Looks sturdy enough and I understand they need to cut costs.
The blade had a line of tiny vertical ridges along the edge that I think are from machine grinding (correct me if I'm wrong) similar to the ones I have on a puukko with a Lauri blade (Wood Jewel Carver 105). On the puukko, they look rustic and I left them, but they bothered me on the Temagami, so I took them out. To come back to my question in this post, that is not the 12C27 of Mora! I sharpened my two SS Moras several times, even fixing a broken tip and dented edge on one (don't ask, but never lend a knife you care about ...). Polishing the Temagami edge was a lot harder and took way longer. On the positive side, it took a nice mirror polish after stropping. Right now, this is my favourite knife and can't wait to take it out.
Santa was kind enough to read my letter and brought me a Helle Temagami! The knife is a beauty and sits in the hand very comfortably. The whole design is great. I have been watching this knife for a while and have a feeling that they cheaped out on the belt loop gradually - all they have now is one single rivet holding it together and attached to the sheath. Looks sturdy enough and I understand they need to cut costs.
The blade had a line of tiny vertical ridges along the edge that I think are from machine grinding (correct me if I'm wrong) similar to the ones I have on a puukko with a Lauri blade (Wood Jewel Carver 105). On the puukko, they look rustic and I left them, but they bothered me on the Temagami, so I took them out. To come back to my question in this post, that is not the 12C27 of Mora! I sharpened my two SS Moras several times, even fixing a broken tip and dented edge on one (don't ask, but never lend a knife you care about ...). Polishing the Temagami edge was a lot harder and took way longer. On the positive side, it took a nice mirror polish after stropping. Right now, this is my favourite knife and can't wait to take it out.
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If I bake a cake using the identical ingredients as a Master Chef, is it certain, or even likely, that the results will be the same?
The same steel can be very different is a knife depending on the heat treatment. That's just reality.
The incremental cost of each degree of quality increases as you approach maximum quality. A $200 knife is rarely twice as functional as a $100 knife. But, to your point, price is not everything. Often money is paid for style or "new." So what is the reputation of a knife among knowledgeable people.?
The same steel can be very different is a knife depending on the heat treatment. That's just reality.
The incremental cost of each degree of quality increases as you approach maximum quality. A $200 knife is rarely twice as functional as a $100 knife. But, to your point, price is not everything. Often money is paid for style or "new." So what is the reputation of a knife among knowledgeable people.?
Fallkniven's laminated VG10 is Rc59 per their site. VG10 is generally not brittle at that hardness, but a 420j2/vg10/420j2 laminate reduces the price of materials and production over straight VG10. Fallkniven squeezes a lot of profit from their knives. For example, Spyderco's Bill Moran field knife is the first US marketed VG10 knife, been around a long time at Rc61 (per AGRussell) a little cheaper than the F1. The Japanese manufacturer of those knives has no trouble with the full VG10 blade chipping and it's harder. Both could be made at the same Japanese factory.
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"Brittle" is a relative term. All steel is "as tough as steel."
VG10, as heat treated for knives, is more brittle than 420J as heat treated for knives according to everyone who expresses an opinion that I can find using Google. I am always grateful to learn more.
Fallkniven says:
"We’re using a laminate steel because such a steel is at least 20 % stronger than a solid stainless steel. Designing a survival knife you always have to consider about the strength of the knife since you might be forced to use the knife beyond standards. Usually we go for strong low/medium carbon stainless steel for the outer layers and add VG10, Cobalt-Special or Super Gold Powder Steel as a center steel. The 420J2 is a low-carbon high chromium alloy steel and we are using that because of its strength and its almost corrosion-free properties. We’re using VG2 stainless steel as well and, with a higher carbon content, the VG2 steel is less scratch sensitive than the 420J2, a little stronger but also more expensive and tougher to work."
"cientific testing (by the , Sweden) proves laminated Fällknivens can take more lateral pressure before breaking than non-laminated older Fällknivens, so there the laminated models are notably more durable than the old ones. Since both the laminated and non-laminated models have the same edge steel of VG-10, both models will have exactly the same edge strength and toughness - the non-laminated certainly isn't tougher or stronger in that sense."
In comparing the Spyderco Bill Moran to the Fallkniven F-1 you are comparing two very different knives.
Spyderco FB02 Bill Moran Steel Drop Point Blade (featherweight)
VG10, as heat treated for knives, is more brittle than 420J as heat treated for knives according to everyone who expresses an opinion that I can find using Google. I am always grateful to learn more.
Fallkniven says:
"We’re using a laminate steel because such a steel is at least 20 % stronger than a solid stainless steel. Designing a survival knife you always have to consider about the strength of the knife since you might be forced to use the knife beyond standards. Usually we go for strong low/medium carbon stainless steel for the outer layers and add VG10, Cobalt-Special or Super Gold Powder Steel as a center steel. The 420J2 is a low-carbon high chromium alloy steel and we are using that because of its strength and its almost corrosion-free properties. We’re using VG2 stainless steel as well and, with a higher carbon content, the VG2 steel is less scratch sensitive than the 420J2, a little stronger but also more expensive and tougher to work."
"cientific testing (by the , Sweden) proves laminated Fällknivens can take more lateral pressure before breaking than non-laminated older Fällknivens, so there the laminated models are notably more durable than the old ones. Since both the laminated and non-laminated models have the same edge steel of VG-10, both models will have exactly the same edge strength and toughness - the non-laminated certainly isn't tougher or stronger in that sense."
In comparing the Spyderco Bill Moran to the Fallkniven F-1 you are comparing two very different knives.
Spyderco FB02 Bill Moran Steel Drop Point Blade (featherweight)
- Length Overall: 8 1/16" (205 mm)
- Blade Length: 3 7/8" (99 mm)
- Cutting Edge: 3 3/8" (86 mm)
- Blade Thickness: 3.00 mm (.125")
- Blade Steel: VG-10
- Blade hardness: 59-60 HRC
- Weight: 3.04 oz. (84 g)
- Handle Material: FRN
- Partial tang
- Total length: 210 mm (8.3")
- Blade length: 97 mm (3.8")
- Blade thickness: 4.5 mm (0.18"), tapered
- Tang: Full length, protruding; near full width.
- Weight (knife): 150 g (6oz)
- Steel: Lam. VG10
- Blade hardness: 59 HRC
- Handle: Thermorun
- Sheath: Zytel sheath
- Made in Sweden
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Not the same factory. All Fallkniven fixed blades are made by Hattori. All Spyderco's Japan made knives are made by G.Sakai. Both manufacturers are located in Seki Japan about 15 minutes drive apart.
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You are correct, but I did not think there was any debate about the country in which Fallkniven knives have been made. The initial ones were made in Germany and thereafter in Japan . This has been discussed many times. E.g.: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/fyi-this-factory-makes-all-fallkniven-blades.757259/
[Feb 2012]Our knives is made in Japan, and will always be, we are really proud of the quality on both steel and finish.
//Eric.[/quote]
Interesting article about history of Fallkniven line: http://hattoricollector.com/2015/09/29/fallkniven-of-boden-sweden/
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It is easy to assume the knives are Swedish and not Japanese. Particularly since the knives I've seen from Fallkniven are not marked as being Japanese made. In addition, KnifeCenter and BladeHQ sites give the country of origin as Sweden. The Fallkniven website does not give country of origin and implies it's Sweden "Purveyor to the Royal Court of Sweden" plus using the 3 Crowns on some knives.
If you want a Swedish knife...buy an Eka
Been Swedish since the 1880s, which is about 100 years before Fallkniven came about.
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It is truly easy to assume, with all that implies.
The knives are truly no longer marked Germany or Japan - or Sweden.
Vendors ignore where Quartermaster and CFK knives are made. They want you to buy and avoid anything they believe might reduce the odds. Fallkniven has told the truth IN THIS FORUM, as quoted above.
"Purveyor" is an English word, as you know. It means the company sells to the Royal Court, which, like EKA, Fallkniven says it does. I have not asked the Swedish Court. Wikki says Fallkniven and EKA each hold a royal warrant as a purveyor to the Swedish Royal Court.
In any event, status as a purveyor to royalty has no relevance whatsoever to the origin of the goods sold. The following are purveyors to the British Royal Family: Bacardi-Martini (rum), Moet-Hennessy (Champagne.), HR Higgins (coffee), Laurent-Perrier (Champagne), Larmandier-Bernier (Champagne) and hundreds more.
I enjoy my EKA knives, whether sold under that brand or not. EKA is part of a joint venture that manufactures knives in China, but not under the EKA brand. Most EKA knives are assembled and finished in Sweden of parts from Portugal and China.
The knives are truly no longer marked Germany or Japan - or Sweden.
Vendors ignore where Quartermaster and CFK knives are made. They want you to buy and avoid anything they believe might reduce the odds. Fallkniven has told the truth IN THIS FORUM, as quoted above.
"Purveyor" is an English word, as you know. It means the company sells to the Royal Court, which, like EKA, Fallkniven says it does. I have not asked the Swedish Court. Wikki says Fallkniven and EKA each hold a royal warrant as a purveyor to the Swedish Royal Court.
In any event, status as a purveyor to royalty has no relevance whatsoever to the origin of the goods sold. The following are purveyors to the British Royal Family: Bacardi-Martini (rum), Moet-Hennessy (Champagne.), HR Higgins (coffee), Laurent-Perrier (Champagne), Larmandier-Bernier (Champagne) and hundreds more.
I enjoy my EKA knives, whether sold under that brand or not. EKA is part of a joint venture that manufactures knives in China, but not under the EKA brand. Most EKA knives are assembled and finished in Sweden of parts from Portugal and China.
I do have a Roselli Hunter UHC and can vouch for his steel. That is a wonderful knife if a bit of a strange shape, but very comfortable in use and it takes a wildly sharp edge. Heimo has a presentation on youtube where he takes shavings off a piece of steel with an UHC blade. That may be soft steel, but it's still fun to watch.