Help about sharpening / honing kitchen knives

L

luste

Joined
Nov 22, 2013
Messages
43
I need suggestions for:

If I use diamond steel instead of steel rod to hone my knives every time I use them, will it damage the blade edge? How quickly?
Suggestions for good steel or diamond steel rod which are great value for the money. Wusthof maybe?
Should I buy 400/1000 combination whetstone first, then 6000? Or 1000/6000 only?
Would you prefer stropping with leather over polishing with 6000+ whetstones? Alternatively, what is the benefit of using whetstones beyond 6000 ie 8000, 12000?

Recommendations for the whetstones would be appreciated!
 
for kitchen use there's no real benefit or need to go much above 2k grit. for slicing skinned stuff like tomatoes you need some tooth to bite , if the edge is honed too fine the blade will slide
My suggestions for a base kit

1. naniwa Chosera 400 or 600 for really dull knives

2 Bester 1200 or a Gesshin 1000 to set a working edge & light touch -up; I have both, the Gesshin 1k is available in XL size which is nice for longer knives

Also , I'd strongly recommend dumping the Rod, with care you should never need to steel a knife every day. a few stokes on a leather strop is more forgiving
 
I forgot to mention that I am low on budget lol.
What would you say about a 1000/6000 water stone combination?

And should I forget the idea of honing knives with steel before / after using them? :/ Does a blade edge not need alignment after use?
 
luste:
if you have a good knife with a good hard blade, you probably dont need a steel. if on a budget, google "sandpaper mousepad". you will have an easy to use sharpening system for $30 or less.
jmho
scott
 
My kitchen knives are all sharpened/polished on 4000 and 8000 grit stones.

they go into tomatoes with ZERO resistance.

id suggest the 1000/4000 stones, cheap isnt good, if you cant afford decent stone, save money.

I NEVER steel any of my knives.
 
luste said:
I've got a Victorinox Forschner chef knife, which I heard has a soft steel...
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true they are soft, but nice quality.
1k/6k stone , combo King , will work well for you.
If you have the funds upgrade to something like TOjiro DP, or MAC, you will really like the change.
 
I've read that water stones tend to lose their flat surface over time, how do I combat that? Plane it with, yet another, diamond stone? >.>
 
luste said:
I've read that water stones tend to lose their flat surface over time, how do I combat that? Plane it with, yet another, diamond stone? >.>
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You can lap stones with DMT, or you can slap some sand paper on flat surface and lap on that. Any stone will dish and will need to be lapped, diamond stones will loose the diamonds impregnated on the surface over time.
 
I was recommended norton india stone combination by some members of this forum, to learn on it and avoid the hassle of lapping the waterstones.
Guess they were right, considering that my results could vary so much on the water stones especially because of the dishing and the need for lapping >.>
 
Misconceptions:

#1: you need a coarse edge to slice tomatoes or pretty much anything food related. False, a sharp edge is a sharp edge. If the edge is "polished" and not cutting then the edge was not sharpened correctly.

#2: You need to "steel" or hone your blade after every use. False, this is a myth developed by those with dull knives.

#3: stop thinking about a steel. Unless you are a professional cook there is no need for one. Stones trump a steel.


For the knife you have a Norton stone would work well but waterstones are a much better sharpening tool. If you decide to upgrade your knife in the future then you won't need to upgrade your sharpening tools too. To flatten a waterstone is easy and is made out to be more trouble than it is. A flattening stone is $20 or a cheap diamond plate is around $40 and can double as a coarse stone. Rubbing it on the sidewalk can work too. Some stones however a very hard and just need a splash of water to get working. Modern waterstones are much more resistant to dishing and don't require as much maintenance as some of the more basic stones like the King brand. They can get expensive depending on brand but if you buy right once its cheaper than buying wrong 100x.

Stones like shapton pro, shapton glass, Naniwa chosera, and Nubatama are some of the higher quality names when it comes to waterstones.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Misconceptions:

#1: you need a coarse edge to slice tomatoes or pretty much anything food related. False, a sharp edge is a sharp edge. If the edge is "polished" and not cutting then the edge was not sharpened correctly.

#2: You need to "steel" or hone your blade after every use. False, this is a myth developed by those with dull knives.

#3: stop thinking about a steel. Unless you are a professional cook there is no need for one. Stones trump a steel.


For the knife you have a Norton stone would work well but waterstones are a much better sharpening tool. If you decide to upgrade your knife in the future then you won't need to upgrade your sharpening tools too. To flatten a waterstone is easy and is made out to be more trouble than it is. A flattening stone is $20 or a cheap diamond plate is around $40 and can double as a coarse stone. Rubbing it on the sidewalk can work too. Some stones however a very hard and just need a splash of water to get working. Modern waterstones are much more resistant to dishing and don't require as much maintenance as some of the more basic stones like the King brand. They can get expensive depending on brand but if you buy right once its cheaper than buying wrong 100x.

Stones like shapton pro, shapton glass, Naniwa chosera, and Nubatama are some of the higher quality names when it comes to waterstones.
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Thanks for the wonderful info. But, unfortunately maybe, I've already bought Norton combination water stone and a ceramic honing rod.
So are you saying that "King" branded water stones WILL dish out more readily compared to the high quality names you mentioned? :/ Sigh. I had decided on upgrading to the 1k/6k King waterstone combination in the near future, if the need arose.
How do the diamond stones, I am thinking DMT, compared to the water stones in performance?
 
If you purchased Norton combo waterstones then you will be fine. I have not used them myself but they have a good reputation though I believe they wear a little quickly.

Yes, the King brand is quality and I feel anyone into waterstones should at least experience a king 1k but its a very basic stone best used on simple carbon and stainless steels like 1095 or AUS8.
 
I'm sure that I've purchased Norton combination INDIA stone... upon recommendation by others.
 
Well that's a bit different from a waterstone. It's a good stone for the knives you have now but I would look into quality waterstones in the future.
 
knifenut1013 said:
#3: stop thinking about a steel. Unless you are a professional cook there is no need for one. Stones trump a steel.
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If using a QUALITY steel on a knife that is of appropriate hardness you can easily get shaving sharp edges in a matter of seconds. A well-made steel is not inexpensive, and functions like an extremely fine file (and are hardened the same way.) I find them handy for when you have to cook something NOW and don't have the time to do a full sharpening session. Steel now, hone later when you have the chance. A steel is not a full-blown sharpening tool so much as to extend the useful life of the edge in between opportunities to sharpen with stones. Store a steel like you would a file--do not let it knock or jostle against hard objects while in storage to prevent blunting of the grooves (i.e. don't just chuck it loose in the misc. kitchen implements drawer!)

Diamond steels are really just diamond stones shaped like a rod. Nothing wrong with them, but they do use a different technique vs. a bench stone, and you'll still be limited by whatever the one grit of the steel is (although you can get three-sided ones I think it cancels out the speed factor that makes steels to appealing)
 
luste said:
I'm sure that I've purchased Norton combination INDIA stone... upon recommendation by others.
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Instead of using oil on the stone, use a drop of dish soap and some water. The dish soap breaks the surface tension so it doesn't pool up. Works the same as oil but without leaving a residue.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
If using a QUALITY steel on a knife that is of appropriate hardness you can easily get shaving sharp edges in a matter of seconds. A well-made steel is not inexpensive, and functions like an extremely fine file (and are hardened the same way.) I find them handy for when you have to cook something NOW and don't have the time to do a full sharpening session. Steel now, hone later when you have the chance. A steel is not a full-blown sharpening tool so much as to extend the useful life of the edge in between opportunities to sharpen with stones. Store a steel like you would a file--do not let it knock or jostle against hard objects while in storage to prevent blunting of the grooves (i.e. don't just chuck it loose in the misc. kitchen implements drawer!)

Diamond steels are really just diamond stones shaped like a rod. Nothing wrong with them, but they do use a different technique vs. a bench stone, and you'll still be limited by whatever the one grit of the steel is (although you can get three-sided ones I think it cancels out the speed factor that makes steels to appealing)
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I think FortyTwo has it right here. Steels are great if used on the appropriate knife. Hard rockwell japanese knives arent great with steels, but anything more traditional European in style will benefit. My carbon Sabatiers respond great to a hone.
 
So just confirming: these Japanese knives everyone seems so fond of are NOT meant to be used with a steel honing rod and its better to just sharpen them on a stone instead only?
 
luste said:
So just confirming: these Japanese knives everyone seems so fond of are NOT meant to be used with a steel honing rod and its better to just sharpen them on a stone instead only?
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A steel honing rod is only meant to "hone" an edge. Basically it helps to realign an edge that is rolled or slightly deformed. A very hard steel resists rolling and usually chips instead. Therefore a honing steel doesn't really help on hard steels. Most Japanese knives have hard steels and thin edges, which makes honing them not effective. Honing works on European knives because the steel tends to be softer (though not always), so the realigning of the edge helps make the knife "act" sharper. A good hone should be very fine (a rough rod is a sharpening steel not a honing steel).

That being said, harder steels keep an edge longer, so they do not need as much sharpening. Unless you work in a production kitchen you really won't need to sharpen your knife more than every couple months as long as you treat them well (good cutting board, not cutting bone, etc).

Hope this helps!
 
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