Help clear up a contradiction

[KarlMaldensNose]

Being new to all this I'm still trying to piece things together and make sense of it all. This is one thing that has me stumped.

I'm reading a lot of accounts of how DE and straight razor shaving can provide closer, cleaner shaves than disposable cartridge shaving can. Also how these methods can reduce ingrown hairs if not stop them all together. The explanation I've read for disposable multi-blade cartridge razors causing ingrown hairs is that the hair shaft is pulled/tugged up out of the skin a bit by the first blade, cut by one of the next blades in the cartidge that follows, then receeds back under the surface of the skin a little bit. I'm sure you've all seen the TV commercials. The theory suggests that the hair sometimes get 'trapped' by dead skin cells, sebum or other debris, and begins to grow under the skin, causing infection, inflamation, etcetera -- ingrown hair.

What I don't understand is how a DE or straight can give a closer shave with just their single blades if there is no preceeding blade to lift the hair up and out of the foillicle for cutting. If we assume the "lift-cut-receed" action of cartridge shaving to be true, then DE's and straights causing less ingrowns makes sense, but them giving closer shaves does not. Can anyone explain this one to me?

 

[zyhano]

Hey Karl,

good question.
I found that for me, a str8 shave gives me a more sustainable type of shave, since I get less irritation on my skin. Therefore I'm able to shave more and better.
The gillettes always irritate my skin bigtime, bleeders in my neck, infections all over the place. The disposable multi blade shave is just too aggressive for my skin, thereby making it impossible to do it anywhere more than once a week and then with a lot of discomfort.
str8 shaving solved all that. If I make 3 seperate passes with a str8, in different directions, I get the same, if not better, result than with a disposable, but then without all the drawbacks. One pass will give me a good clean shave, 2 or 3 just makes it awesome, but I don't do that often since it takes more time. mostly I go for 2 passes.
Also, for someone that is able to sharpen their blades, like you, it's easy to take good care of the blades and have them in good shape, making them shave easily and comfortable.

hope that helps :thumbup:

 

[Will Power]

Can't explain it but I suspect that a DE razor being considerably heavier than a cartridge makes a fast clean cut, not dragging, more accuracy and control. But, more potential to cut yourself when inexperienced, it's true. Using a shaving brush may also exfoliate the skin, thus reducing bumps,pore blocks and ingrown bristles.

Also, no cartridge blade comes anywhere near a Feather for closeness of shave, that is my experience of a lifetime. Since getting back into DE shaving 2.5 years ago, I haven't had ANY ingrowing hairs for over 2 years now.No more pulling horrors out with tweezers or poking around with a needle. Why, I don't know. Miss it, I do not.

 

[unky_gumbi]

Being new to all this I'm still trying to piece things together and make sense of it all. This is one thing that has me stumped.

I'm reading a lot of accounts of how DE and straight razor shaving can provide closer, cleaner shaves than disposable cartridge shaving can. Also how these methods can reduce ingrown hairs if not stop them all together. The explanation I've read for disposable multi-blade cartridge razors causing ingrown hairs is that the hair shaft is pulled/tugged up out of the skin a bit by the first blade, cut by one of the next blades in the cartidge that follows, then receeds back under the surface of the skin a little bit. I'm sure you've all seen the TV commercials. The theory suggests that the hair sometimes get 'trapped' by dead skin cells, sebum or other debris, and begins to grow under the skin, causing infection, inflamation, etcetera -- ingrown hair.

What I don't understand is how a DE or straight can give a closer shave with just their single blades if there is no preceeding blade to lift the hair up and out of the foillicle for cutting. If we assume the "lift-cut-receed" action of cartridge shaving to be true, then DE's and straights causing less ingrowns makes sense, but them giving closer shaves does not. Can anyone explain this one to me?

Lets see if I can shed some light on this. The reason that you can get a closer shave with a DE or straight on top of the sharper blades is because they don't cut the hair at an angle like a multi bladed razor does. Also to get the close shave you need to do multiple passes and reduce the growth that way instead of in a single pass. Lastly the prep work before the shave makes it easier for the razor to cut the hair. If you are doing the same prep with a multi bladed razor it will cause the ingrown hairs to be worse because you will be cutting that much further below the skin.

A lot of it comes from the near flat cut of the hair, it doesn't get that pointed leading edge to it that allows it to dig in. At least that is my understanding of it.

 

[shecky]

I'm reading a lot of accounts of how DE and straight razor shaving can provide closer, cleaner shaves than disposable cartridge shaving can.

Yeah, I've read that too. IMO, it's not the tool, but the skill that produces closer shaves. I use multi and single blade disposables, DE razors, single edge razors, Injector razors. I only rarely use a cartridge razor and a straight. They all work wonderfully after getting the hang of how they work. This isn't rocket science, nor is it magic. The only one that I think really demands a lot from the user is the straight. The rest are fine examples of modern shaving products, producing decent results with little skill, and excellent results with a little more finesse on the part of the user.

 

[Gollnick]

It does seem a contradiction that so many folks report getting significantly better shaves with a single-blade razor than with five-blade razors. How can this be?

I suspect -- and I am just speculating wildly here -- three possible causes:

1) The design of the mulitblade-cartridge systems is so conservative, so biased to make it absolutely impossible to nick or cut yourself, that it is now actually impossible to get a perfect shave with one, a flaw they try to patch by adding more and more blades. Nobody has ever explained to what, if the first blade lifts and the second blade cuts, the third -- much less the fourth or fifth -- does. The "safety" in DE Safety Razor does not mean that it is impossible to nick or cut yourself, just that it is significantly more difficult to do and that it is impossible to actually medically-seriously injure yourself. (If the truth be told, to medically-seriously injure yourself with a straight razor -- a.k.a. a "cutthroat razor" -- requires extreme misuse.)

2) One of the proported features of the cartridges is the flexibility of the blades. I suspect that this actually reduces the closeness of the shave.

3) I simply suspect that the mass-marketed cartridges are made with less-sharp blades. Sharpness is necessarily a tradeoff with durability of the edge. To get longer blade life so that consumers will be less likely to do the math and realize how much they're paying per-shave, they compromise sharpness.

 

[average gimp]

Using a shaving brush may also exfoliate the skin, thus reducing bumps,pore blocks and ingrown bristles.

There may be something to this--since I use oil rather than soap and brush, my razor bumps seem to be getting worse since I switched to a DE.

 

[THG]

3) I simply suspect that the mass-marketed cartridges are made with less-sharp blades. Sharpness is necessarily a tradeoff with durability of the edge. To get longer blade life so that consumers will be less likely to do the math and realize how much they're paying per-shave, they compromise sharpness.

I took apart a gillette sensor 3 cartridge after I was done with it and tested it on some hairs. It was pretty darn sharp; it split hairs every time.

I traded those for my Dovo straight razor, though, which I can't get as sharp at the moment, but I do get a better shave (method vs. raw sharpness.)

 

[Will Power]

There may be something to this--since I use oil rather than soap and brush, my razor bumps seem to be getting worse since I switched to a DE.

I feel that these shaving-oils, I have used them, are a guarantee for blocking pores and encouraging a host of ingrowing bristles. Get on board the brush bus

Another point about cartridge razors is they clog up horribly with soap and bristles during use. Won't rinse out either! Simple job to wash out a DE to maintain a better contact angle and feel. You feel a DE razor at work much better than you do with a cartridge, this alone may promote a closer shave.

 

[Alanp]

My impression was that the prep has a lot to do with it. The brush helps to bring the hairs up. Another thing I'de like to say is that with a cartridge razor, you have one blade that passes over a shaving cream covered face, and 4 more that pass over one with little or no lubrication left.

 

[shecky]

It does seem a contradiction that so many folks report getting significantly better shaves with a single-blade razor than with five-blade razors. How can this be?

Self selection bias?

I've noticed this among wet shaving enthusiasts. It's a little easier to see on the shaving forums simply because they are more numerous there than here. People, frustrated with expensive cartridges and foams, decide to try old fashioned wet shaving, helped in part by the glut of very inexpensive used razors available on the internet. Take the time and effort to experiment and refine their method, and what do you know, they're getting great shaves with this old, antiquated technology! Additionally, there is a novelty factor, along with a nostalgia factor. And again, internet to connect users with other users to form a community of people with common interests.

Yet, another interesting thing to see in the shaving forums is the occasional wet shaving enthusiast go back to the multi blade wonder to give it a try, and as if by magic, they get a great shave, even if they admit it grudgingly. The difference? The shaver has honed his skills on the process, even if he may be focusing on the tools.

This isn't to say cartridge razors don't have their failings. They can still cost an arm and a leg. But I noticed that I was not afflicted with that initial bias, as I never used expensive cartridge razors. The only five bladed wonder I used was given to me free. And it worked fine. I had no resentment about spending all that money, driving me to a supposedly cheaper and superior alternative. Any my methods were already suited to my needs. As such, the multi bladed wonder performed well.

Shaving companies sell lots more multi blade cartridge razors than older style single edge razors. Why? Because they work. And most men have no need or desire to switch. In contrast, wet shaving enthusiasts often seem to have all the zealotry of newly converted. Interestingly, the newly converted seem to make up the overwhelming share of today's wet shaving enthusiasts. Thus, self selection bias.

 

[Will Power]

I think they sell lots more cartridge razors because they decided to move away from DE razors and promote the former. They bring in much bigger profits evidently, this at the consumers' cost.

The internet, as you point out, has enabled DE enthusiasts to exchange views and, in some cases to trumpet things a bit I admit. The internet has also enabled me to return to DE shaving and buy products that no longer exist in chain stores or supermarkets (here in Europe anyway). I started shaving in the 1970s with DE razors, within 10 years these had been displaced by disposables/cartridges and 'foam/gel' in a can. I got back into DE shaving about 2.5 years ago, it took a very short while to re-adjust and to find a far better shave, much closer too with better skin health. I would never willingly return to cartridge/aerosol shaving again, not only is it horribly expensive, it's simply inferior.

 

[unky_gumbi]

I have to say that I noticed an instant difference when I switched to DE from cartridge. No irritation, no ingrown hairs, the two things that had made me shave only once or twice a week. With the DE I can shave every day and have never had an ingrown hair since the switch. I have had a couple times that I got irritation, but that was caused by me trying razors blades that just don't work for me.

The multi bladed razor is not superior just faster, I would rather spend 30 minutes for a good shave.

 

[Rick in KY]

...The reason that you can get a closer shave with a DE or straight on top of the sharper blades is because they don't cut the hair at an angle like a multi bladed razor does. ...A lot of it comes from the near flat cut of the hair, it doesn't get that pointed leading edge to it that allows it to dig in. At least that is my understanding of it.

...1) The design of the mulitblade-cartridge systems is so conservative, so biased to make it absolutely impossible to nick or cut yourself, that it is now actually impossible to get a perfect shave with one, a flaw they try to patch by adding more and more blades...

I think a combination of these two theories goes a long way in clearing up the seeming contradiction posed in the OP.

If I would expand, it would be that the DE shaver learns to respect his razor; because, unlike the "idiot-proof" engineered multi-blade cartridge, his "safety" razor may bite him. This aversive conditioning causes the DE shaver to take better care with his technique, thus raising his level of skill.

 

[The Z]

If you want to use cartridges I would really, really recommend trying a shaving soap with a brush. It can be as cheap/simple as Williams Mug Soap (available at CVS for $1.50 or so here), and a single puck will last you years (literally). Just drop it in an old mug, soak the brush while you shower, then wet it with nice hot water, shake it out a bit, and get a nice rich lather going. Your shaves will be closer, you won't have to replace blades as often, and your skin will feel amazing.

When I use Mach 3's I use the blades for ages and ages. If I travel to say my parents house and use their edge pro gel or whatever it is, my razor doesn't really work any more. I have to use hand soap to get a shave. Then I go home, razor works fine with the mug soap. I think the shave gel guys are in cahoots with the cartrige guys to make you have to replace blades more often, but that's just me.

 

[RetiredGuns]

I'll be honest and say that the 35 years I shaved with a cartridge was just fine. I will also say that the old Atra was darn good and the M3 I used for years damn good. The reason I got into DE shaving had nothing to do with shave quality however I did overuse cartridges due to the ridiculous prices. If it were not so they wouldn't be locked up like Crown Royal!

I switched because it is something that can be fun and not so mundane. Finding vintage razors, revisiting old school scents, trying new soaps and creams, taking time to enjoy it instead of mindless swiping, etc..

 

[average gimp]

I feel that these shaving-oils, I have used them, are a guarantee for blocking pores and encouraging a host of ingrowing bristles. Get on board the brush bus

Wish I could. My oil--Shave Secret--isn't the problem, as I was using it with my Atra before I switched to DE with only minimal problems. I shave around a beard that I will not shave off, so I need to see the edges clearly and can't deal with lather. Moreover, I don't have time for the brush thing anyway--schedule is tight and can't give up more sleep than I already do. FWIW, switching from my slant bar to a regular DE has been an improvement.

Shaving has never been fun for me. I enjoy the DE cost savings over cartridges, but if electrics worked worth a damn, I'd go with one of those. Hell, if Magic Shave worked at all, I'd use that.

 

[unky_gumbi]

Wish I could. My oil--Shave Secret--isn't the problem, as I was using it with my Atra before I switched to DE with only minimal problems. I shave around a beard that I will not shave off, so I need to see the edges clearly and can't deal with lather. Moreover, I don't have time for the brush thing anyway--schedule is tight and can't give up more sleep than I already do. FWIW, switching from my slant bar to a regular DE has been an improvement.

Shaving has never been fun for me. I enjoy the DE cost savings over cartridges, but if electrics worked worth a damn, I'd go with one of those. Hell, if Magic Shave worked at all, I'd use that.

That's you are banned from this sub forum

Soap or cream don't take much time at all and you can clear the edges of your beard with a wet finger. If you have the time on a weekend I suggest giving a cream a try. If it works better and doesn't take much more time you are ahead of the game, if it doesn't work let me know and I will buy the cream off of you and pay the shipping so you aren't out anything but maybe 2-3 extra minutes

 

[kg4ghn]

Wish I could. My oil--Shave Secret--isn't the problem, as I was using it with my Atra before I switched to DE with only minimal problems. I shave around a beard that I will not shave off, so I need to see the edges clearly and can't deal with lather. Moreover, I don't have time for the brush thing anyway--schedule is tight and can't give up more sleep than I already do. FWIW, switching from my slant bar to a regular DE has been an improvement.

Shaving has never been fun for me. I enjoy the DE cost savings over cartridges, but if electrics worked worth a damn, I'd go with one of those. Hell, if Magic Shave worked at all, I'd use that.

I have a van dyke that I shave around and I don't have any problems using a brush and lather. It also doesn't take me long any more to make plenty of lather. You need a few minutes to let everything soak into your beard anyway.

 

[Will Power]

Well, it certainly could be a problem shaving around a beard I understand that.

But, you know the solution........

On a historical note, the Romans from their art appear to have been mainly clean-shaven. Wonder what sort of razor the ancients used? The Greeks, Persians and Biblical tribes all had beards but not those romans. Interesting.