Help guide me on my sharpening path

[dataz722]

I have a growing collection of knives, almost exclusively kitchen knives at this point though, and I hate sending them out to get them sharpened. Many of the knives are shuns but I also have some more traditional western style knives tosses in there as well ranging in all sorts of types, qualities, and whatnot. I am also looking to expand my collection of non-kitchen knives as well.

Because of the wide ranges of types of knives I need something that is very versatile since I would like to keep the original 16 degree bevel on the shuns. I have done a fair bit of reading and research and am really considering the edge pro or wicked edge. I would really prefer not to spend that kind of money on it though, but would be willing to if needed.

I don't really trust myself to be able to hold the exact angle required for shuns to sharpen them freehand and all of the other cheaper systems I have found don't offer the right angle for what I am looking for.

Is there something that I am missing or overlooking? I would be willing to use stones or a belt sander or anything really but would really want some sort of highly adjustable guide. I have seen some little cheap plastic guides online but haven't read anything about them so I don't know if they are just complete crap or not.

So, given my requirements, what would you all recommend for me?


Thanks in advance.

 

[dataz722]

Another thing that I think might work for now would just be good strop and use that weekly or so for a while. The knives, right now, far from dull but they aren't as sharp as where I want them and they could be. Would the stropping work to just regain some of the edge back and to maintain a nice edge?

 

[vtvman]

Another thing that I think might work for now would just be good strop and use that weekly or so for a while. The knives, right now, far from dull but they aren't as sharp as where I want them and they could be. Would the stropping work to just regain some of the edge back and to maintain a nice edge?

As long as the edge isnt chipped or damaged a strop will work nicely to bring back initial sharpness if the proper technique is used.

For sharpening, I would consider learning free hand even though I know you said you dont trust yourself with it. Free hand sharpening is one of the most versatile ways to sharpen any knife especially kitchen cutlery. The variety of waterstones available give you plenty of options as to how fine or coarse you would like your edge to be for cutting. There will always be slight variations in angles whenever you sharpen freehand whether its from a beginner or a pro but the resulting convex edge is much stronger than a v grind from a jig sharpener.

However, if you truly will not consider free hand sharpening, I would go for the edge pro over the wicked edge for shun knives. The wicked edge's diamond stones cut too aggressively for a steel like vg 10 and the waterstone kits for the wicked edge are waaaaay more expensive than the waterstone kit for the edge pro. The wicked edge also does not currently have the option to go below 15 degrees on each side which may be too obtuse of an angle for some eastern knives.

I dont think you can go wrong with any of your options. Keep researching and eventually youll find the right sharpener that fits all your needs!

 

[dataz722]

As long as the edge isnt chipped or damaged a strop will work nicely to bring back initial sharpness if the proper technique is used.!

Thanks. I think I will start with that for now and try to find a used system in the future.

For sharpening, I would consider learning free hand even though I know you said you dont trust yourself with it. Free hand sharpening is one of the most versatile ways to sharpen any knife especially kitchen cutlery. The variety of waterstones available give you plenty of options as to how fine or coarse you would like your edge to be for cutting. There will always be slight variations in angles whenever you sharpen freehand whether its from a beginner or a pro but the resulting convex edge is much stronger than a v grind from a jig sharpener.

Let me rephrase. I am not completely opposed to freehand sharpening and in fact want to learn and get good at it, but my want to keep my shuns away from that until I am much better at it.

However, if you truly will not consider free hand sharpening, I would go for the edge pro over the wicked edge for shun knives. The wicked edge's diamond stones cut too aggressively for a steel like vg 10 and the waterstone kits for the wicked edge are waaaaay more expensive than the waterstone kit for the edge pro. The wicked edge also does not currently have the option to go below 15 degrees on each side which may be too obtuse of an angle for some eastern knives.

I dont think you can go wrong with any of your options. Keep researching and eventually youll find the right sharpener that fits all your needs!

Thanks. I hadn't heard that before about the diamond and VG10. Good to know. I was originally leaning towards the edge pro but in the past few ways started to sway the other way.


Thanks.

 

[stitchawl]

Are you using a 'steel' before each cooking session? You should be... Either with a Meatpacker's Steel or a Borosillicate Glass rod. With just a few swipes of the blade along a smooth, hard surface will bring a fairly sharp knife right back to brilliantly sharp in just seconds with no loss of metal from the knife. Personally, I prefer the Glass Rod (you can substitute the edge of a Pyrex baking dish as Pyrex is just a brand name for borosillicate glass) but any smooth, hard steel rod will work too. I don't care for the 'Butcher's Steels' that have grooves in them, nor the large diamond coated rods for this process, though those diamond rods will do a quick job of sharpening, if that's needed. I just don't find it necessary to continuously sharpen a well maintained knife. 'Steeling' before each use cuts down the need to sharpen. I only 'sharpen' my kitchen knives 2-3 times a year on an EdgePro Apex, give them a 20 second touch up on a Sharpmaker once a week, and steel before each use. I don't strop my kitchen knives at all.

Stitchawl

 

[dataz722]

Are you using a 'steel' before each cooking session? You should be... Either with a Meatpacker's Steel or a Borosillicate Glass rod. With just a few swipes of the blade along a smooth, hard surface will bring a fairly sharp knife right back to brilliantly sharp in just seconds with no loss of metal from the knife. Personally, I prefer the Glass Rod (you can substitute the edge of a Pyrex baking dish as Pyrex is just a brand name for borosillicate glass) but any smooth, hard steel rod will work too. I don't care for the 'Butcher's Steels' that have grooves in them, nor the large diamond coated rods for this process, though those diamond rods will do a quick job of sharpening, if that's needed. I just don't find it necessary to continuously sharpen a well maintained knife. 'Steeling' before each use cuts down the need to sharpen. I only 'sharpen' my kitchen knives 2-3 times a year on an EdgePro Apex, give them a 20 second touch up on a Sharpmaker once a week, and steel before each use. I don't strop my kitchen knives at all.

Stitchawl

I will typically steel the knives once or twice a week and always right before I am about to do a lot of cutting. It is just a standard butchers steel though made by Shun. This does a decent job of maintaining the blades but it has been over a year since they have been sharpened and the steel just isn't cutting it anymore. My knives get a good bit of use, compared to normal home use, so a year between sharpenings and still having a decent edge seems pretty good to me.

Is there any reason in particular that you don't strop them? Or is it just that you don't feel it is needed? I am just looking to use a strop similar to the way you are using the sharpmaker I think. Just to periodically bring the edge back slightly and be able to hold off on true sharpenings. Is this not a proper way to do it?

 

[stitchawl]

Is there any reason in particular that you don't strop them? Or is it just that you don't feel it is needed? I am just looking to use a strop similar to the way you are using the sharpmaker I think. Just to periodically bring the edge back slightly and be able to hold off on true sharpenings. Is this not a proper way to do it?

While I DO strop my EDC and hunting knives religiously, to a mirror finished edge, I think steeling (or in my case, 'glassing,') does all that I need for my kitchen chores. I am careful to do so before each meal prep, and I believe that helps quite a bit. The Sharpmaker, even with the extra-fine stones, takes off some metal, albeit very little, and I only need to give the knife 4-5 strokes per side to completely restore the edge each week. I guess I just don't want to put such a polished edge on my kitchen tools. Putting the blade on the EdgePro knocks back the shoulder a bit, thinning the blade and giving a fresh edge to work with.

When I began stropping 15-20 years ago, I bought every grit of compound available, and a dozen strops from Hand America. Since I learned a bit more over the years, I now only use CrO2 on either thin leather or bare MDF board, or bare top quality Shell Cordavan Horse hide on both hanging and mounted strops, depending upon the blade being done. Still, it's just my pocket and hunting knives as well as my leather working tools that get stropped.


Stitchawl

 

[Skimo]

I like the Edge Pro, I just recently tossed my meat cleaver on it, the blade goes from 4" to 6" tall, and I don't know that the wicked edge would handle it in its clamp.

Also, with even the Edge Pro Apex you can sharpen kitchen shears.

I picked up a ceramic hone for my kitchen knives and I prefer using that instead of the grooved steel.

 

[stitchawl]

I like the Edge Pro, I just recently tossed my meat cleaver on it, the blade goes from 4" to 6" tall, and I don't know that the wicked edge would handle it in its clamp.

Also, with even the Edge Pro Apex you can sharpen kitchen shears.

The EdgePro can't be beat! Over the years it's performed flawlessly for every single blade that I've tried to sharpen with it, from machetes to pen blades on a small pocket knife, and everything in between. Flawlessly, and to any angle and any grit desired. You just can't ask for better. It's the perfect compliment to the home sharpening tool chest, along with (in my opinion) the Sharpmaker and the DMT aligner.

I picked up a ceramic hone for my kitchen knives and I prefer using that instead of the grooved steel.

I've often wondered why anyone likes the grooved steels. To me, they are as aggressive as the 'Chef's Choice' electric sharpener! Give me 'smooth' steel or glass every time!


Stitchawl

 

[dataz722]

While I DO strop my EDC and hunting knives religiously, to a mirror finished edge, I think steeling (or in my case, 'glassing,') does all that I need for my kitchen chores. I am careful to do so before each meal prep, and I believe that helps quite a bit. The Sharpmaker, even with the extra-fine stones, takes off some metal, albeit very little, and I only need to give the knife 4-5 strokes per side to completely restore the edge each week. I guess I just don't want to put such a polished edge on my kitchen tools. Putting the blade on the EdgePro knocks back the shoulder a bit, thinning the blade and giving a fresh edge to work with.

When I began stropping 15-20 years ago, I bought every grit of compound available, and a dozen strops from Hand America. Since I learned a bit more over the years, I now only use CrO2 on either thin leather or bare MDF board, or bare top quality Shell Cordavan Horse hide on both hanging and mounted strops, depending upon the blade being done. Still, it's just my pocket and hunting knives as well as my leather working tools that get stropped.


Stitchawl

Thanks.

I like the Edge Pro, I just recently tossed my meat cleaver on it, the blade goes from 4" to 6" tall, and I don't know that the wicked edge would handle it in its clamp.

Also, with even the Edge Pro Apex you can sharpen kitchen shears.

I picked up a ceramic hone for my kitchen knives and I prefer using that instead of the grooved steel.

The EdgePro can't be beat! Over the years it's performed flawlessly for every single blade that I've tried to sharpen with it, from machetes to pen blades on a small pocket knife, and everything in between. Flawlessly, and to any angle and any grit desired. You just can't ask for better. It's the perfect compliment to the home sharpening tool chest, along with (in my opinion) the Sharpmaker and the DMT aligner.



I've often wondered why anyone likes the grooved steels. To me, they are as aggressive as the 'Chef's Choice' electric sharpener! Give me 'smooth' steel or glass every time!


Stitchawl

I could be, and most likely am, completely wrong here, but I thought ceramic removed some metal and actually sharpened while a hone just straightened the edge but didn't actually remove metal or sharpen.


And I guess it looks like I am going to get the edge pro. You both just swayed me back that way. Now just which set.

I just ordered some leather and compounds to make a strop too.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I could be, and most likely am, completely wrong here, but I thought ceramic removed some metal and actually sharpened while a hone just straightened the edge but didn't actually remove metal or sharpen.

Generally speaking the ceramic and steel ones remove some metal. Run one along the sharp corner of the spine on one of your knives and you'll see it shine and round it in short order. The metal ones act like a fine file, the ceramic ones are like a fine stone. I'm not familiar with the borosilicate ones but borosilicate is an abrasive, so likely they too remove metal just far more cleanly and finer than steel or most ceramics. The grooved ones are capable of "grinding" (filing) a fresh edge on the softer metals most cheap kitchen knives are made from, and with a bit of practice they work reasonably well - they do not work well on tougher steels IMHO. I've kept up on some of my kitchen knives for several years using nothing but a coarse and fine steel.

 

[stitchawl]

I could be, and most likely am, completely wrong here, but I thought ceramic removed some metal and actually sharpened while a hone just straightened the edge but didn't actually remove metal or sharpen.

The unglazed ceramic rods DO remove metal and actually ARE sharpening the edge. A smooth steel or borosillicate glass rod does NOT remove any metal. I'm deliberately NOT using the word 'hone' as I can find three different definitions for it that are quite opposite one another! One says 'sharpen,' one says 'sharpen with ultra-fine grit,' while the third says 'refines an edge.' All rather ambiguous. Most common usage for 'honning' seems to be final polishing with an ultra fine grit, which is why you find so many references to 'honning stones' if you do a Google search.

And I guess it looks like I am going to get the edge pro. You both just swayed me back that way. Now just which set.

For what it's worth, from someone who has just about every stone sold, and dozens of stones that I had cut to order for my Apex, I find I use 120, 320, 600, 1,000 in stones, then go to polishing tapes at 2,000, 4,000, 10,000, 15,000, then a high quality horsehide strop on a stone blank. BUT............... I do NOT do this for all my knives! I only take my kitchen knives to either 600 (large chef's knives) and 1,000 (smaller paring knives) The high grit polishing is only done on my pocket folders, and then, just because I like the way it looks. They function just fine if I stop at 2,000.
Order a couple extra 120's... they wear quickly. The higher grit stones last much longer.


Stitchawl

 

[dataz722]

The unglazed ceramic rods DO remove metal and actually ARE sharpening the edge. A smooth steel or borosillicate glass rod does NOT remove any metal. I'm deliberately NOT using the word 'hone' as I can find three different definitions for it that are quite opposite one another! One says 'sharpen,' one says 'sharpen with ultra-fine grit,' while the third says 'refines an edge.' All rather ambiguous. Most common usage for 'honning' seems to be final polishing with an ultra fine grit, which is why you find so many references to 'honning stones' if you do a Google search.

Ok, so my understanding was pretty accurate then. That would also explain why I have been confused by "honing". Whenever I thought I knew what it was I would see something that would contradict it. I have been dealing with that for years now. Thank you.

For what it's worth, from someone who has just about every stone sold, and dozens of stones that I had cut to order for my Apex, I find I use 120, 320, 600, 1,000 in stones, then go to polishing tapes at 2,000, 4,000, 10,000, 15,000, then a high quality horsehide strop on a stone blank. BUT............... I do NOT do this for all my knives! I only take my kitchen knives to either 600 (large chef's knives) and 1,000 (smaller paring knives) The high grit polishing is only done on my pocket folders, and then, just because I like the way it looks. They function just fine if I stop at 2,000.
Order a couple extra 120's... they wear quickly. The higher grit stones last much longer.

Stitchawl

Thanks. I am kind of considering getting the chosera kit at chefsknivestogo.com but will probably just go with the apex 3 or 4 set.

Is there any reason you prefer to use the tapes over a strop on the knives that you do take that far? I have read a ton of complaints about the tapes and those are the only difference between the two sets I am seriously considering. I hadn't even thought about ordering extras of the lower stones ahead of time but it makes a lot of sense.


Again, thanks for all your advice.

 

[stitchawl]

Ok, so my understanding was pretty accurate then. That would also explain why I have been confused by "honing". Whenever I thought I knew what it was I would see something that would contradict it. I have been dealing with that for years now. Thank you.

In the sharpening world, everything... and I mean everything, has two (or more sides to it.) For every person who says "white," there will be another who says "black"... and can prove it as well!!! Everyone has their own ideas, opinions, and truths, and as far as I can tell, they are ALL correct 'for that person.'

I am kind of considering getting the chosera kit at chefsknivestogo.com but will probably just go with the apex 3 or 4 set.

Many of us aim for absolute perfection and must have the very best of the best in stones, compounds, jigs, and clamping devices, etc. I know I have a closet full. But at the same time, many of us will freely admit that there is no need for it all... I can get just as good an edge using a $10 DMT clamp and four-five sheets of wet/dry sandpaper as I can with a $300 EdgePro set. But I still use my Apex... but I ALSO use my DMT clamp, RazorEdge clamp, Sharpmaker, and several other tools.

Is there any reason you prefer to use the tapes over a strop on the knives that you do take that far? I have read a ton of complaints about the tapes and those are the only difference between the two sets I am seriously considering. I hadn't even thought about ordering extras of the lower stones ahead of time but it makes a lot of sense.

First, let me say that I don't use one over the other. I use both. But polishing tapes are much more consistent grit size but more expensive than most compounds, unless you want to spend a lot of money of the stuff. For hand stropping, a bar of compound the size of a Milkyway candy bar should last you, your son, and your grandson... Those one-pound bars that are sold in the hardware stores are made for machine buffing and even then, they only cost a few dollars. Some companies try to attract folks who think if they spend $25 they will be getting a better product... In fact, they are... but is it worth $25? Not to me. I use the $3 compound and that seems to work just fine... I'm not putting my edges under a high powered microscope. I'm cutting things with them. If I can push cut toilet paper with my EDC I'm happy enough. To each his own.

I don't use the polishing tapes that come with the EdgePro. I buy sheets of the stuff at my local Home Center. I can get a package of four 8"x10" sheets for about $8 USD. That cuts up to a lot of polishing tape... For me, it's usually available in 2,000, 4000, 10000, and 15000 grit. Sometimes there are other grits available depending upon which home center I go to.

I strop (many, but not all) of my knives faithfully. I like to use the polishing tapes as they do very fast work of producing a mirror finish, but no matter what I use, I always finish the process with one or two strops. I'll use green CrO2 compound or diamond .5mic on either leather or MDF board after the polishing tapes, then the absolute final step is to strop with bare high quality Shell Cordavan horsehide. Other horsehide works well, (silicate size is the same in all leather, cow, horse, goat, etc.) but Shell Cordavan horsehide has a higher concentration of natural silicates than the rest of the hide, so it only takes 5-10 strokes to produce the perfect finished edge.

Everybody has their own way, each has his/her own opinions. What I wrote above works best for ME. I don't claim it to be the best for everybody. Being an old guy, I've had a lot of time and enough money to try just about everything out there. I learned to sharpen a knife almost 58 years ago. I've learned again and again over the years. I'm still learning new things. But I do keep my knives sharp!


Stitchawl

 

[dataz722]

Thank you again for your detailed answers. I already have some leather and compound ordered so I was going to just go with the Apex 3 but after reading your response it is probably just worth the extra $20 to get the blanks and some tapes with the Apex.

Where do you find the sheets of the tape in the home centers? What are they marked or sold as so I know what to look for?

Thanks again.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Are you using a 'steel' before each cooking session? You should be... Either with a Meatpacker's Steel or a Borosillicate Glass rod. With just a few swipes of the blade along a smooth, hard surface will bring a fairly sharp knife right back to brilliantly sharp in just seconds with no loss of metal from the knife. Personally, I prefer the Glass Rod (you can substitute the edge of a Pyrex baking dish as Pyrex is just a brand name for borosillicate glass) but any smooth, hard steel rod will work too. I don't care for the 'Butcher's Steels' that have grooves in them, nor the large diamond coated rods for this process, though those diamond rods will do a quick job of sharpening, if that's needed. I just don't find it necessary to continuously sharpen a well maintained knife. 'Steeling' before each use cuts down the need to sharpen. I only 'sharpen' my kitchen knives 2-3 times a year on an EdgePro Apex, give them a 20 second touch up on a Sharpmaker once a week, and steel before each use. I don't strop my kitchen knives at all.

Stitchawl

Do you use an edge-leading stroke, edge-trailing, or both? Having dabbled with steels in the past and gotten good results on soft metals, poor results on harder fare, your opinion of them has spurred me to take a fresh look with the harder knife steels. The smooth steel in my collection might not be grooved, but its not exactly "smooth" anymore either (if it ever was - purchased well-used at an estate sale). I'm going to polish it up on the finishing wheels at the shop till its bright and give it a try. Any technique pointers would be much appreciated.

HH

 

[stitchawl]

Thank you again for your detailed answers. I already have some leather and compound ordered so I was going to just go with the Apex 3 but after reading your response it is probably just worth the extra $20 to get the blanks and some tapes with the Apex.

One of the members here made me a bunch of blanks out of sheet aluminum. He made them in different widths which I found to be very helpful. I took some stones to a lapidary shop and had them cut them to fit the wider stones so it's easier/faster for me to sharpen bigger blades. I did the same with thinner blanks making it easier to sharpen steep recurves. I also mounted leather on blanks to make different strops for the Apex. I figure it's sort of like buying a car... Often some of the best things for your car come from after-market suppliers or tune-ups you do yourself.

Where do you find the sheets of the tape in the home centers? What are they marked or sold as so I know what to look for?

They are in the same racks/shelves as the sandpapers, but packaged. They are colored blue, pink, tan, etc. depending upon the grit size. As for the packages themselves... well... unless you are in Japan your packages are going to have different writing on them! LOL! They come in two sizes too. 8x10 and 4x6. Here is a pack of 4x6 in 10,000 grit.

If you don't find them in your home centers, try DIY shops, hobby shops, and modeler's supply houses on the net. It's pretty common stuff, but not often used by the average person.

Stitchawl

 

[stitchawl]

Do you use an edge-leading stroke, edge-trailing, or both?

Both, but edge-trailing 98% of the time. I only lead with the edge when using 15,000 grit film mounted on MDF board, and even then, verrrrry carefully with a light hand. I still cut the crap out of the film...

Having dabbled with steels in the past and gotten good results on soft metals, poor results on harder fare, your opinion of them has spurred me to take a fresh look with the harder knife steels. The smooth steel in my collection might not be grooved, but its not exactly "smooth" anymore either (if it ever was - purchased well-used at an estate sale). I'm going to polish it up on the finishing wheels at the shop till its bright and give it a try. Any technique pointers would be much appreciated.

The steel 'steel' that I use/used isn't a commercial one. It's an 18" round bar of 1/2" steel that I bought in a hardware store for a couple of bucks. It must be a carbon steel as if I let it happen, it will rust. The rust factor was one of the things that led me to try using borosilicate glass. Glass doesn't rust. I went to a chemical supply shop and had them make me a glass rod about 3/4" in diameter and about 12" long. I think that cost me about $5 but I was in Thailand at the time so things are cheaper. Still, borosilicate glass is what most chemical glassware is made from, as well as ALL baking glassware. The glass pie plate, meatloaf pan, measuring cup, etc., in your kitchen is borosilicate glass. "Pyrex" is just a brand name for the stuff. It's really cheaper than window glass! Try stropping on the edge of a loaf pan for a few days and see if you like the results.

For technique, personally I prefer to hold the rod and slice down towards my hand. I don't go too fast or try to get flashy with it, and it only takes 6-10 strokes to get the job done. My wife prefers to use the table-top method: stand the rod up on a dish towel so it doesn't slip, holding the top of the rod, and slicing down the rod towards the table. Since I taught her that method she uses it every time she cooks. Prior to that she would never even think about how sharp her knives were. (We use different blade designs; she prefers Santoku and I prefer French Chef. The point of a French knife scares a lot of people!)


Stitchawl

 

[HeavyHanded]

The steel 'steel' that I use/used isn't a commercial one. It's an 18" round bar of 1/2" steel that I bought in a hardware store for a couple of bucks. It must be a carbon steel as if I let it happen, it will rust. The rust factor was one of the things that led me to try using borosilicate glass. Glass doesn't rust. I went to a chemical supply shop and had them make me a glass rod about 3/4" in diameter and about 12" long. I think that cost me about $5 but I was in Thailand at the time so things are cheaper. Still, borosilicate glass is what most chemical glassware is made from, as well as ALL baking glassware. The glass pie plate, meatloaf pan, measuring cup, etc., in your kitchen is borosilicate glass. "Pyrex" is just a brand name for the stuff. It's really cheaper than window glass! Try stropping on the edge of a loaf pan for a few days and see if you like the results.


Stitchawl

Hmmm, it sounds like your 'steel' isn't hardened like the commercial ones. The ones I have are all hardened, from what I've read they're about mid 60s RC. The one I polished (did it right after my last post) is very hard stuff based on how it responded to the finishing wheels. I wonder how that affects it if at all?
Sadly, a lot of the baking glass is just soda glass now, only the stuff made in Europe is real Pyrex. Gotta get some laboratory glass to work with.

 

[stitchawl]

Hmmm, it sounds like your 'steel' isn't hardened like the commercial ones. The ones I have are all hardened, from what I've read they're about mid 60s RC. The one I polished (did it right after my last post) is very hard stuff based on how it responded to the finishing wheels. I wonder how that affects it if at all?

What ever it is, it does a fine job of refining the edges of my kitchen knives. No complaints on that score. As I said, my reason for switching to glass had more to do with rust than result, although I do think the glass does give me a slightly better edge. Of course, that's completely subjective. I've never tried testing between the two.


Stitchawl