Help identifying a 'G. Butler & Co.' horseman knife

[Ezek87]

Hi all

I am new here, and I am checking with the community if anyone could provide some information about a horseman pocket knife from the brand "G. Butler & Co.", which I have received 15 years ago or so from my late grandfather. He was born in Hungary and was part of the aristocracy there. He flew the country with his family when he was around 16, at the end of WWII when the country was occupied by the USSR. He then went on to live in Belgium for a short while and then moved to Canada (started working on the laying of railways there) and finally came back to Belgium for the rest of his life. I would assume this is a piece of item dating back from his time in Hungary (or maybe even from his father or grandfather). The only thing he told me when he gave it to me, was that this knife belongs to a museum. Unfortunately, I did not manage to get any further information from him on this.

The knife contains a large blade, a small blade, a can opener, a corkscrew, a small hook to help pull the laces, a "hooves cleaner", a pivoting part apparently used to remove the cartridges and a point which I do not know the utility of (pardon my vocabulary I am not familiar with technical terms). The plates appear to be silver.

From the information I could get online, this knife would be a 19th century horseman knife from Sheffield. From what I've been told, it is apparently rare to find so many functions on a knife from this era.

Here are the pictures:







Would any expert be able to provide further information on this?

Cheers

Alex

 

[Jack Black]

Welcome to Bladeforums Alex. Sorry to learn of the passing of your grandfather, but he sounds to have led an interesting life, and that's a fine keepsake. The hook is called a 'button hook', used in the days when gents wore spats and/or buttoned boots, and ladies wore long buttoned gloves, but I'm sure it could also be used for tightening laces. The 2 'bolts' are for repairing harnesses. I can't see one, but there may be a depression under the hoof-pick, which allows it to be used as a nut-cracker, primarily for hazelnuts. The number of accessories is not unusual on a knife of this type, but it's nice that they are in good condition.

George Butler & Co were an excellent cutlers, producing many multi-bladed Sportsman's knives. The firm date back to the 18th century, being granted their first mark from the Company of Cutler's in Hallamshire (Sheffield) in 1768. It had various incarnations, only becoming George Butler & Co in the middle of the 19th century, and by then there were no surviving members of the Butler family involved.

By 1870, Butler's employed around 50 men, and in 1883, they became a limited company. They acquired the 'key' mark in 1882, and registered silver marks in 1872 and 1894 (they also specialised in electro-plating cutlery). Though they were a successful company, their star began to want towards the end of the 19th century, and continued to do so in the 20th, going into liquidation in 1952. The name is still used on Sheffield table cutlery, having being bought after the liquidation.

Alex, can you answer a couple of questions please? Are there any stamps/marks on the reverse of the blade tangs. Also, are the small marks on the covers, near the shackle, assay marks? If so, you will be able to date the knife more or less exactly. I hope that is helpful

Jack

 

[Ezek87]

Hi Jack,

Thanks a lot - very useful and interesting!

I am not 100% certain what you mean by "reverse of the blade tangs", so I've taken additional pictures.

The marks on the covers are indeed assay marks. Very difficult to read but the first one seems to be three letters, starting with A and ending with K, but it could be "ART" though. The middle one seems to be "985" or "935" and the last one I really could not say.

When you refer to the two "bolts", do you mean the rotating piece with the numbers 12 and 16 engraved (last picture)? I had been told it was used to remove shells.

Best,

Alex

 

[Jack Black]

Hi Jack,

Thanks a lot - very useful and interesting!

I am not 100% certain what you mean by "reverse of the blade tangs", so I've taken additional pictures.

The marks on the covers are indeed assay marks. Very difficult to read but the first one seems to be three letters, starting with A and ending with K, but it could be "ART" though. The middle one seems to be "985" or "935" and the last one I really could not say.

When you refer to the two "bolts", do you mean the rotating piece with the numbers 12 and 16 engraved (last picture)? I had been told it was used to remove shells.

Best,

Alex

Thanks for the additional photos Alex

What I meant by the reverse of the blade tangs was this (above) Alex. Often there is nothing on the reverse of the blade tangs, but what I was looking for was the Butler 'Art' trademark, which is sometimes found on the reverse of Butler tangs, if it isn't on the front. The inclusion of 'England' below Sheffield CAN also be useful in terms of dating a knife

I don't think these are actually assay marks. To me they look like the sort of marks, redolent of assay marks, which Sheffield manufacturers sometimes added to nickel silver covers or bolsters, as recently as the early 1980's. They were often designed to look somewhat like assay marks, see this example from, William Rodgers, for example.

Cam tangs, as opposed to square tangs, go back a long way, but are usually associated with later production.

A nice selection of hand-forged tools.

That's interesting, rather than just being a 'punch' or awl, which it might double-up as, that looks to me like a small 'marrow spoon', used in this instance, not for extracting marrow, but to see what a trout or salmon is currently eating, to help in selecting an appropriate artificial fly.

Those are the harness bolts, which are removeable. The extended web, (central liner), on the right, is a screwdriver.

The numbers, I assume, are shotgun gauges (12 gauge and 18 gauge).

Once again, I hope that's helpful Alex

Jack

 

[Ezek87]

Wow that is so crazy, thank you so much! Really interesting information!

 

[eisman]

The shotgun pullers are 12 and 16 gauge. They work by using a claw action and slip down around the rim of the case to allow the case to be pulled out of the barrel. Many old shotguns did not have ejectors; they used extractors which only pushed the cartridge up out of the barrel so the gunner could more easily extract them. With old paper shells it was not uncommon for the extractors to slip over the rim of the case, a situation that not only made it hard to remove the case, but also made it impossible to close the action and continue shooting.

I'm very interested in that configuration on your knife. I have not seen that type of blade before and it's a very handy set up.

Here's a picture of a more common type of shell puller, built into the bolsters of this knife:

 

[Ezek87]

Hi everyone-

Last quick question: how would you recommend I clean the knife? Shall I use polishing paste (I have this https://www.couteau.com/accessoires-pate-a-polir.html) and WD40 and Q-tips? Then petroleum jelly on the blades and tools for long terme storage?

Alex

 

[Jack Black]

Hi everyone-

Last quick question: how would you recommend I clean the knife? Shall I use polishing paste (I have this https://www.couteau.com/accessoires-pate-a-polir.html) and WD40 and Q-tips? Then petroleum jelly on the blades and tools for long terme storage?

Alex

I'd strongly recommend that you DON'T clean it Alex. Give the blades a wipe with some fine mineral oil, wipe that off with a tissue, then give them a thin coat of Renaissance Wax. Put a drop of fine mineral oil in the joints, and store somewhere dry, with a few sachets of silica gel. Or, if you plan to carry it, skip everything but the oil, maybe get yourself a nice veg-tanned leather pocket slip, and enjoy carrying it

 

[Ezek87]

that's noted, thank you!

 

[Primble]

It has some very very very nice patina on it the way it looks in the photos. It gives it character and an antique look. If you use polishing paste, it will remove it and make it look shiny. I would rub it gently with a dry microfiber towel and call it done. If it starts to shine up too much, I would go no further. You asked. Mr. Jack's recommendation looks smart to me as well.

 

[btb01]

Really interesting old knife Alex, thanks for sharing it with us. That rotating shell puller is particularly cool!

 

[Ezek87]

It has some very very very nice patina on it the way it looks in the photos. It gives it character and an antique look. If you use polishing paste, it will remove it and make it look shiny. I would rub it gently with a dry microfiber towel and call it done. If it starts to shine up too much, I would go no further. You asked. Mr. Jack's recommendation looks smart to me as well.

Thanks, will do so, making sure to keep the patina! I also asked how to clean because inside there's a bit of dark dirt, but I gently scrapped it with a toothpick and managed to get rid of most. I unscrewed the bolts to check their condition, there was a bit of rust but nothing too bad. Honestly I am surprised at how good its overall condition is It probably has not been used much in the past.

I may try to give it a good edge with my Spyderco Tri-Angle - hope that's fine

Edit: actually the short blade still is razor sharp, crazy

 

[SteveC]

Great old knife !

 

[eisman]

You can clean it without losing the patina in an ultrasonic tank. If you don't have one (they're not expensive and come in handy) check with your local jeweler. That will get a huge amount of the junk that's hard to get to. If it's been sitting for a couple years you may have trouble with the stuff that's solidified. That can be removed also; check after the first cleaning and then oil the knife well (or put it in a mineral oil bath for a couple days). Then use hot water to remove most of the oil and another 3-5 minutes of ultrasound should shake most of the remaining crud loose.

If there's anyplace that's rough a little lapping compound will smooth that out (as may metal polish). I'd worry more about corrosion than removing patina, especially if you carry it any, as just being in your pocket will polish it a bit.

 

[ed_is_dead]

Hi all

I am new here, and I am checking with the community if anyone could provide some information about a horseman pocket knife from the brand "G. Butler & Co.", which I have received 15 years ago or so from my late grandfather. He was born in Hungary and was part of the aristocracy there. He flew the country with his family when he was around 16, at the end of WWII when the country was occupied by the USSR. He then went on to live in Belgium for a short while and then moved to Canada (started working on the laying of railways there) and finally came back to Belgium for the rest of his life. I would assume this is a piece of item dating back from his time in Hungary (or maybe even from his father or grandfather). The only thing he told me when he gave it to me, was that this knife belongs to a museum. Unfortunately, I did not manage to get any further information from him on this.

The knife contains a large blade, a small blade, a can opener, a corkscrew, a small hook to help pull the laces, a "hooves cleaner", a pivoting part apparently used to remove the cartridges and a point which I do not know the utility of (pardon my vocabulary I am not familiar with technical terms). The plates appear to be silver.

From the information I could get online, this knife would be a 19th century horseman knife from Sheffield. From what I've been told, it is apparently rare to find so many functions on a knife from this era.

Here are the pictures:







Would any expert be able to provide further information on this?

Cheers

Alex

Really love the fact its a family heirloom and such a fantastic piece too.

Really intresting marks. When you zoom in it's looks like A&K or maybe A&D? The numbers appear to be 935 and perhaps then the lion passant?
One might wonder it if its Argentium?

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Argentium is the newest sterling silver alloy to hit the market. I first fell in love with Argentium over 15 years ago, and would like to share with you why I think you'll fall in love with Argentium too.

tahmi.com

The A&D may be Allen & Darwin https://www.925-1000.com/dlSheffield.html#M
?
All a bit of a stretch as Jack says they sometimes used psuedo hall marks but worth a dig
Mind it for your next generation!