Help identifying a knife - early Al Mar? Early Spyderco? Something else?

SaintlyBrees

SaintlyBrees

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I've seen you guys work your magic on other threads, so thought I'd toss this challenge your way. :)

Reading the Al Mar thread, I noticed that an old, well used, knife of mine bore a resemblance to some of the knives that I found when looking up both the early Spyderco knives and Al Mar's work. I can't recall when I obtained this knife, but I think it was some time in the early '80s.

It has no manufacturer, just the word "Rugged" on the blade. On the tang, on that side, is "127" and below that "22". On the tang on the reverse side is "Seki", "Japan", and "ATS-34". 3 1/4" closed, 2 3/4" blade.

Knife shows obvious signs of use as it was one of my 2 EDCs during that time and got a lot of real work. [Edit: But even after all these years, the knife is still nice and tight, no play and excellent lock up. It feels crisp and "clicks" into place. Excellent fit and finish, obviously a well made knife. Looks a bit rough from use, but still highly functional.]

Here are some pics. Please forgive the quality as I am a self-professed crappy photographer. :D

DSC_0039.jpg


DSC_0037.jpg


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Any thoughts? TIA!
 
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The one Spyderco made without the hole was the C27 Jess Horn, and it had a large trapezoidal depression on both sides that served the same purpose. The Al Mars always featured the short lockbar "front lock" as far as I know (at least since I first saw them back in the late 70s). It looks like a Moki made piece to me, the same company that made the Al Mar, but not made for them.
 
bearcut said:
Looks like an Al Mar to me.
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My initial thoughts as well. But I haven't seen any pics of his knives without his name on the blade. Of course, with as little knowledge as I have of them, that may be pretty meaningless. :)

9blades said:
I agree...as far as I know spyderco only ever made one knife without a hole (the name of the model escapes me) and it's clearly marked.
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I clearly don't understand the relationship between Al Mar, Spyderco, and Moki but they keep coming up in context together. So your comment about all Spyderco knives being labeled as such clarifies that piece. Still, I do see them mentioned together as in this pic from spydercollector dot com:

sage4.jpg


Again, the knowledge that I have in this field cannot be underestimated. :stupid:
 
yablanowitz said:
The one Spyderco made without the hole was the C27 Jess Horn, and it had a large trapezoidal depression on both sides that served the same purpose. The Al Mars always featured the short lockbar "front lock" as far as I know (at least since I first saw them back in the late 70s). It looks like a Moki made piece to me, the same company that made the Al Mar, but not made for them.
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Which would explain the resemblance without the Al Mar name...

BTW, I would expect that at the time of purchase, this would not have been a particularly expensive knife. Most likely something that I would have picked up in a hardware or department store. If that helps.
 
ATS-34 steel was not very common back then, but the unbranded Moki pieces were generally a lot less expensive than the Al Mar branded pieces.

The Sage 4 shown above is a tribute to Al Mar, thus the similarity.

If I remember right, Sal Glesser of Spyderco said that Al Mar introduced him to the makers he works with in Japan, Moki being one of them. Moki produces knives for other companies, much as Camillus used to here, and made both Al Mar branded knives and Spyderco branded knives.
 
In my opinion definately its a MOKI and G.Sakai produced knife from the 80s.. I never seen that stamp so it cant be a AL MAR.. Moki and G.Sakai have always made a great hi quality production knives and they have produced knives for AL MAR...
It does closely resemble a AL MAR Hawk or Falcon so chances are its a MOKI or G.Sakai... NICE KNIFE!
 
It looks like a chinese made copy of a Al Mar. I used to see many cheap chinese blades at gunshows marked ATS 34. As the "super steel" of it's day it was marked on lots of blades that didn't have it. Boatloads in fact. They sold for under $5 at gunshows and flea markets, gas stations, etc. That was before internet shopping really took off. Just a thought. It might really be a Moki but typically the only knives that used the high end steels in the early 90's were brand name knives. I've never heard of "rugged" brand knives.
 
It's definitely Japanese. Rugged was one of those small start ups in the mid 80's that had knives made in Seki during those years. I don't know the history of the brand, but the knives were high quality, mostly inspired by Al Mar and Gerber designs.
 
The construction fit & finish doesn't look like China quality in the 80s. I had several in that era, but none can match the finish there. A bit doubtful that it's a China copy.

If it is, there would be nowhere the steel held up to ATS34 edge retention.

To OP, how did you ind the edge holding?

On the lock position, Kershaw Gentleman folder has same lock position and made in Japan as well. Nothing strange there.
 
dax0007 said:
In my opinion definately its a MOKI and G.Sakai produced knife from the 80s.. I never seen that stamp so it cant be a AL MAR.. Moki and G.Sakai have always made a great hi quality production knives and they have produced knives for AL MAR...
It does closely resemble a AL MAR Hawk or Falcon so chances are its a MOKI or G.Sakai... NICE KNIFE!
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Thank you. :)

The Mastiff said:
It looks like a chinese made copy of a Al Mar. I used to see many cheap chinese blades at gunshows marked ATS 34. As the "super steel" of it's day it was marked on lots of blades that didn't have it. Boatloads in fact. They sold for under $5 at gunshows and flea markets, gas stations, etc. That was before internet shopping really took off. Just a thought. It might really be a Moki but typically the only knives that used the high end steels in the early 90's were brand name knives. I've never heard of "rugged" brand knives.
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Pretty sure that it is not a Chinese knock off. While I am sure that it was not an expensive knife back then, I am also sure that I would not have bought a $5 knife. Just not my style. :) For example, my other EDC was a Buck 501 which was typical of my buying habits. Not the best since I couldn't afford it, but not cheap crap , either. Craftsman tools, but not Snap-on. Like that. And, when you hold it and feel it you can tell that the quality is actually there.

yablanowitz said:
ATS-34 steel was not very common back then, but the unbranded Moki pieces were generally a lot less expensive than the Al Mar branded pieces.

The Sage 4 shown above is a tribute to Al Mar, thus the similarity.

If I remember right, Sal Glesser of Spyderco said that Al Mar introduced him to the makers he works with in Japan, Moki being one of them. Moki produces knives for other companies, much as Camillus used to here, and made both Al Mar branded knives and Spyderco branded knives.
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Understanding more about the relationship of those 3 now. Thank you.

tltt said:
It's definitely Japanese. Rugged was one of those small start ups in the mid 80's that had knives made in Seki during those years. I don't know the history of the brand, but the knives were high quality, mostly inspired by Al Mar and Gerber designs.
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Knowing that the words "Rugged" actually refer to a brand gives me quite a lot to go on. Great piece of info.

Chris "Anagarika";12272524 said:
The construction fit & finish doesn't look like China quality in the 80s. I had several in that era, but none can match the finish there. A bit doubtful that it's a China copy.

If it is, there would be nowhere the steel held up to ATS34 edge retention.

To OP, how did you ind the edge holding?

On the lock position, Kershaw Gentleman folder has same lock position and made in Japan as well. Nothing strange there.
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The edge has held up well. It is one of the harder knives that I have to sharpen, but it holds the edge well once I get it right. It always held an edge better than my other EDC at the time, a Buck 501 - and it got a lot of hard use. Needs some work right now which is why I have it out. It hasn't been sharpened since I retired it from active duty a few years ago and was due a good sharpening then. So - time to make that right.

Thanks to all who have helped here so far. I appreciate all the shared knowledge. :)
 
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SaintlyBrees said:
I clearly don't understand the relationship between Al Mar, Spyderco, and Moki but they keep coming up in context together.
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As others have indicated, Moki made knives for many maker's, including Al Mar and Spyderco.

I have no knowledge of the Rugged brand, but it too could have been make by Moki.

Than again, would Moki make knock-offs of the Al Mar's they're already making?

I would suspect another maker in Seki City might be the source.




Big Mike
 
Big Mike said:
As others have indicated, Moki made knives for many maker's, including Al Mar and Spyderco.

I have no knowledge of the Rugged brand, but it too could have been make by Moki.

Than again, would Moki make knock-offs of the Al Mar's they're already making?

I would suspect another maker in Seki City might be the source.




Big Mike
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I've seen others like that that were sold under Moki's own brand. Rear lock release rather than forward lock release, so it isn't really an Al Mar knock-off.
 
In all actuality, it looks almost excactly like an A. G. Russell lockback. I have one that is identical in outline, down to the thong hole and mini sharpening choil.

Of course, mine says "Made in Japan" so that doesn't get us anywhere. Mine also has a damascus blade.

I'll see if I can find a pic.
 
I agree with DAX0007 and Yablaonwitz, they hit the nail on the head IMHO.
 
Has anyone been able to come up with anything on "Rugged" brand knives? I can't find anything on them. I don't remember them either. Rigid, and many others but no "Rugged" brand. If they were made by Moki or G.Sakai I wouldn't mind finding a couple.
 
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