help identifying cavalry sabers

[gkitch]

This pair of swords strike me as 19th Century Cavalry weapons...but that is about all we know. An "appraiser" listed the upper Horsehead sword as "Germany, circa 1880-1890". Does anybody recognize these as anything more specific? Dates/ origins? Many thanks!

 

[horseclover]

To be honest, neither look like they were made for German consumption but both could have been made in Germany. You don't picture the entire blades, so length is tough to judge. I'm not inclined to agree with the late 19th century either but am sometimes as often wrong as right.

If the blades are less than about 32" but more than 29" (from guard to point in a straight line) I would be more inclined to say they were intended for American mounted artillery use from the first few decades of the 19th century. Still, very likely German made but also quite possibly British. Look closely at the base of the blades, up under those little ears/langets. Any marks at all on the spine of the blade as well. These grips both look like they were rewrapped at some point.

The style of the guards themselves says earlier than later to me. There were central and eastern European countries that hung onto them into the 20th century but the form is typically earlier. The reason I don't think they were made for German consumption is that we see the pronounced reverse P shaped knucklebows on their standard patterns.

If you have not, I would register over at http://forums.swordforum.com and post these up to the Antique & Military section. I've not seen this particular horse but horse pommels were found on mounted artillery officer's swords. They are not common but do occur with some frequency. There are a great many eyes from the UK and Europe that watch that room and, collectively, there is quite a library for reference.

Cheers

GC

 

[gkitch]

Thank you, Horseclover! The blade of the horsehead is 27.5", while the plain sword has a 32".
The horsehead has some light etching on both sides of the blade, but I could not get a usable pic. No other markings can be found but I'll look them both over again.
These are from the estate of the late author Robert Jordan. The appraiser has been so terribly off on many of the identifications that I'm starting over on most items.

 

[horseclover]

What I can see on the horsehead blade looks more like fine line engraving than etching. It also looks to have good hard gilding left on the hilt and I'm inclined to say this one is from Birmingham or London. Considering the blade length on that one, I would say it was for a light artillery officer. The plainer and longer blade is really quite typical for a mounted artillery blade from about 1810 to the 1830s. America imported bushels and bushels of them. Likely not later than the Mexican War period.

Only so much can be said without the swords in hand and appraisals are touchy at best via forums. Scabbards can double value, especially on the older pieces because few of the leather and brass ones survive well. The horsehead would do well at auction with better ID (even without precise description it would do well).

Thee are some folk that will do sword appraisals online. The aforementioned SFI forum is not one of them though probably the best collective effort for an ID. A Google search for sword appraisal brings up a few.

I see Ron Ruble pops up

http://www.ruble-enterprises.com/home.htm

Two more I have some faith in would be

www.gundersonmilitaria.com

and

http://arms2armor.com/

All three are dealers with good reference material and reputation for being pretty honest.

Someone else, whose site I don't seem to find anymore is Richard Bezdek. Ah, here he is. I know that he does charge a fee (as do many) but he is a noted author himself and is very much in the ID business.

http://www.theswordman.com/

The very first hit for sword appraisal on Google yields this site and list.
http://www.esa-swords.com/AppraisalService.htm

I had seen some of your postings previously and know you are looking to expedite these. It might be a good idea to move the swords through an auction house or on consignment at a dealer. Dealers would also be willing to make offers for entire collections. I hate to start listing all the possibilities, as it could be construed as spam on any forum but one such arms auction house is Cowans, another Manion's. Again, shopping aropund via Google might be helpful to you. While the provenance of coming from the author may help sales a little, I don't think most serious collectors would add a premium to the price in what they would be willing to pay. That said and as mentioned previously, the horsehead could do quite well at an auction unless it has more serious condition problems than what I see.

Cheers

GC

 

[gkitch]

Thanks again, I will run them up on the other forum.
The objective withthis collection is to see that it falls into the hands of those who appreciate them. Some may appreciate them for their historical significance and others for their providence. My challenge is to make sure that a buyer at least knows what it is he is buying. The info needs to be accurate. Thanks again for your help on this.

 

[gkitch]

I just returned from the estate. No markings could be found on either sword. I did go back through his reference library and found 2 books by the aforementioned Richard Bezdek. Everything seems to indicate that these swords are both of European make for early American use. Neither, by the way, has a scabbard.

 

[horseclover]

Be patient with registering over at the other site. Only one guy has the key to approve new regisrations and it can sometimes take a few days. Other times it can go through same day.

It is handy and not suprising that he would have had reference books for his collections. So many of the imported swords during that period are unmarked, it can sometimes lead to disallusionment but the plainer sword here is so like a geat many that it is pretty easy to categorize. The sword trade and cutlery efforts are really convoluted at times during the early 19th century that it is often only in finding an exact and marked match that a true source ID can be confirmed. Bezdek's 1812 title is helping me unwind some Philadelphia questions I have long had. There, as in Birmingham and Solingen, the numbers of folk involved and international trade really throw a lot of curves when looking at unmarked examples. if his library includes Harold Peterson's American Swords title, there is a more commonly found horsehead pommel artillery sword pictured in figure 97. I have seen another English made horsehead pommel with no American connection but do not have the images or reference on hand. It may just have been mention of such at the other place.

Cheers

GC