Help identifying this shirasaya tanto

t1mpani

t1mpani

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Joined
Jun 6, 2002
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5,516
Hi there,
A friend of mine purchased this at $175, and asked me to find out what I can about it. I would imagine there is a better/more correct description for this thing than "shirasaya tanto" but that's what my limited knowledge would call it. I can take higher quality photos if needs be (just have to pull out the light tent and work at it a little) but was thinking, perhaps, somebody might recognize it as something currently offered by one of the replica houses. My extremely inexpert opinion is that the construction seems decent, the habaki is a little loose but the wooden handle could have shrunk. The hamon is definitely real--noticeable difference in hardness between the edge and the spine; the edge is hard enough that it can easily scratch my Leatherman's blade, and the reverse is not true. The overall build and quality seem...decent. A noticeable jump above the usual, catalogue/tourist junk, but nothing that I think would exceed most of the items from Cult of Athena.

So, thoughts? Do I need to actually try a little harder on the photography, or is there enough here for somebody more knowledgeable than me to explain what a brilliant-or-stupid purchase this was? Many thanks in advance for any information you can give.

 
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Certainly looks to be a genuine Nihonto.
It's a tanto with kanmuri-otoshi-zukuri sugata(shape).
Can't read the kanji just yet but they probably relate to a slogan as opposed to a signature.
With the chippy style of engraving the kanji, I'd guess this is a later period blade, possibly Shinshinto but probably Showa.
This is probably a WW2 'kamikaze' tanto.

Is it possible to get the handle off for a look at the tang?

Worth the $175 paid at least. Couldn't get the quality shirasaya alone made for that price.
 
You're RAPIDLY outpacing me. :D

How would I go about removing the handle? Just take a nylon punch and start tapping on the handle peg?

I greatly appreciate your help.
 
It's just another language, that's all. ;)
I give you the Japanese terms so you can google the info for your own research.

Removing the handle: you'll see the peg holding it together about an inch below the scabbard and handle junction. It's a bamboo peg, called mekugi.
It's tapered, so find the small end and push on that with something that won't damage the end of the bamboo. Once that is out, hold the blade carefully using the habaki(silver collar) and try to remove it from the handle. If you're lucky it will slide out easily.
More than likely it won't, so very carefully use something to tap on the handle wood to remove. This isn't rocket science but I stress be careful, use something softish(pine block, rubber hammer) and go very carefully. Easy job, but the potential to crack or dent the wood is there, as is scratching/marring the silver foil on the habaki, scratching the blade itself and potentially breaking the thin edge of blade that sits inside the habaki. All costly so be careful. ;)

Once inside, have no temptation to clean anything. The rust/patina on the tang is indicative of age; removal removes value.
Good luck.
 
I will work on removal, research, etc. tomorrow and I thank you very much! More pictures will be forthcoming.

Edit to add: Well, I was just reminded that I'm flying out tomorrow, but I'll be back on Saturday evening, so the disassembly will have to wait until then. Guess I better get to packing! Again, thank you so much--the friendly knowledge-base that exists on this site is why I've hung around it so long.
 
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Safe flight.

On closer inspection, I don't believe the kanji are a slogan but are a signature. I'm not a native speaker and have trouble with this chippy carving style but I have part of it, I think. ;)
X Yama Ju Yoshi Ta

Ju means 'resident of'. So, the first two kanji should be a province ending in Yama of which there are a few, but I can't read the first kanji.
The last two kanji are the smith's name. Neither kanji I am sure of but best (semi-educated) guess would be Yoshita.
Your best bet for a proper translation would be to post on the Nihonto message board.

Signatures on the blade itself were/are unusual, generally being on the tang if there at all.
We'll see what the tang pictures show.
 
Well, currently the mekugi is stuck about half-way out of the handle. The ends were almost exactly the same size, but one was a tiny bit smaller so that's the side I've been driving. I'm guessing that perhaps it has become flared from being hammered on and doesn't want to go through the tang. I don't know how I could have been more gentle on it, I got a little oak dowel just *slightly* smaller diameter than the peg and have been using that to lightly push/tap it out. So...how much would breaking the original mekugi affect the value of this piece? I haven't done it yet but I'm afraid of getting too much more insistent with it, pushing or pulling.

Edit to add picture:

 
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Mekugi should be tapered but it's not always the case. Try driving it from the other direction.
The mekugi hold no monetary value and were replaceable.
Bamboo is generally used, sometimes buffalo horn.
For blades in use, an aged and smoked bamboo called susudake is used because it is tougher.
For blades that sit in a collection, it's ok to use chopsticks.
 
Lee Bray said:
Certainly looks to be a genuine Nihonto.
It's a tanto with kanmuri-otoshi-zukuri sugata(shape).
Can't read the kanji just yet but they probably relate to a slogan as opposed to a signature.
With the chippy style of engraving the kanji, I'd guess this is a later period blade, possibly Shinshinto but probably Showa.
This is probably a WW2 'kamikaze' tanto.

Is it possible to get the handle off for a look at the tang?

Worth the $175 paid at least. Couldn't get the quality shirasaya alone made for that price.
Click to expand...

Im with you on the Kamikaze tanto, Ive seen a number of them, from machine made crap to the real deal. Thats likely a prayer or slogun on the shinogi-ji.
 
Okay, finally home and have it apart. These pictures aren't really higher resolution so much as they're in much better light. I didn't do any rust removal, however I DID give the thing a mineral oil soak, which turned a few bits of angry/active red rust into inert black oxidation. Perhaps it's a collecting no-no, but to me, inert oxidation is character where active rust is cancer. Anyway, here it is. I was surprised at the size of the hole in the tang, given the small size of the mekugi. Mind you, the handle wasn't coming anywhere CLOSE to being loose or rattling when it was together, so I suppose it was doing its job. I can't make out any kind of markings at all on the tang, which is about 2/3" the length of the handle and distal tapered.

 
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The lack of a signature and the shaping of the tang lead me back to the 'kamikaze tanto' theory.
They were a sidearm for the pilots who couldn't land their planes very well...

A few of these tanto were forged as such but many were salvaged from the tips of katana or wakizashi.
My guess on the history of this blade would be that it started out life as an Edo period wakizashi which was repurposed during the second world war by a smith who put his signature on the blade. Either it never made it into commission or it served with a pilot who could actually land.

I'm fairly certain the kanji are the province and smith's name as already stated but I cannot figure out the first and last kanji.
 
Could be the tip of a wak...yep its a Kamikaze pilot piece. No yasuri to speak of, nakago jiri is not well formed. Still a neat piece and has some value. The mei (inscription) is quick and dirty as well.
 
Thank you Both so very much---still worth posting on the Nihonto board for another shot at the full translation? And I'll go ahead and try and find the Nihonto board...
 
It's unlikely that the full translation will reveal a reknowned maker as such but it would be useful for your friends info on the blade.

Glad to help.

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/
Post in "Translation assistance" or "Military swords of Japan" subfora.
 
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I have registered with them and am awaiting a response to activate my account. Thanks again--I'll return with the answer. I'm sure, just as you say, that there's no hidden master to be revealed here but I know the owner will enjoy having as much of the history as he can.

Out of curiosity, what would an expected retail price range be for such an item, if you happen to know? I don't know that there's ever the intention to sell the thing, but again he might like to know if he's holding $200, $300, etc.
 
Providing the translation doesn't come back as Masamune, you're probably in the range of a few hundred $, possibly creeping up to $500 on a very good day.
 
Here is the response of the only (so far) answering post:

東山住美平

Higashiyama ju Yoshihira

Fake signature.......

My dream would be that the worker who was turning it into a tanto copied the signature found on the sword's tang for posterity, or something. It's also possible somebody just knew of a sword maker from that period and chiseled it on here.
 
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t1mpani said:
Here is the response of the only (so far) answering post:

東山住美平

Higashiyama ju Yoshihira

Fake signature.......

My dream would be that the worker who was turning it into a tanto copied the signature found on the sword's tang for posterity, or something. It's also possible somebody just knew of a sword maker from that period and chiseled it on here.
Click to expand...

Sometimes they are attribution signatures when one is lost in the case of o-suriage (cut down). Gimei or fake signatures are quite common.
 
Yes, Lee Bray mentioned that on the other forum. Again, thank you for all the info--I was very out of my depth. :)
 
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