Recommendation? Help me move to carbon steel

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idahoguy

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I'm not a steel snob at all, but have tended toward the higher end steels. Lately, I've bought several old Imperials, and am very impressed with the hardness of their steels. Some of their shell covers leave something to be desired as far as durability, but they've got me interested in vintage carbon steel knives.
Question is, which brand, in your opinion, consistently had the hardest steel, along with quality construction? I'm interested in knives from the 30's - 50's.
If this forum can't give me some direction, it just ain't gonna happen!
 
Robeson heat treated their steel very well and were really ahead of their time with metallurgy. More so on post ww2 knives.
 
I find it odd that you moved to traditional knives for the steel. I enjoy traditional knives and find my needs completely met by carbon steel, but the steel is the last reason I moved from modern to traditional.


I'm certain someone will correct if Im wrong, but for some reason I recall reading here that the heat treatment of steel in that time period was inconsistent. It may have been another era and I am mistaken.
 
I think the old Imperials and Schrade knives without "SCHRADE +" on the tang had 1095 blade steel. ("Schrade +" was stainless steel, I think they used 440A, but may be mistaken.)
If you would be interested in an inexpensive (but not "cheap") modern made slipjoint with 1095, Rough Rider makes a few in the Canoe, Trapper, and a couple other patterns. For under $15 or so, they are a heck of a deal. Don't let the low price fool you. They have good heat treat on the carbon steel and stainless steel models, the fit and finish rivals and can exceed that of knives costing much, much more. In addition, they are consistantly one of the sharpest knives out of the box.
Check out the Rough Rider and Related thread. They have a good reputation here.
Another inexpensive option would be the Opinel with "Carbone" blades. It is darn near impossible to find a knife that out-cuts an Opinel, to include expensive kitchen knives.
 
afishhunter said:
I think the old Imperials and Schrade knives without "SCHRADE +" on the tang had 1095 blade steel. ("Schrade +" was stainless steel, I think they used 440A, but may be mistaken.)
If you would be interested in an inexpensive (but not "cheap") modern made slipjoint with 1095, Rough Rider makes a few in the Canoe, Trapper, and a couple other patterns. For under $15 or so, they are a heck of a deal. Don't let the low price fool you. They have good heat treat on the carbon steel and stainless steel models, the fit and finish rivals and can exceed that of knives costing much, much more. In addition, they are consistantly one of the sharpest knives out of the box.
Check out the Rough Rider and Related thread. They have a good reputation here.
Another inexpensive option would be the Opinel with "Carbone" blades. It is darn near impossible to find a knife that out-cuts an Opinel, to include expensive kitchen knives.
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Can you give a reference supporting the claim that Rough Rider is using 1095? The ad copy that I've seen on the dealer website incorrectly states 440 --probably just copied from the stainless knives. I would be shocked if it is actually 1095. I've heard rumors that it's 1075 but they are just rumors.
 
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You gotta love the old carbon steel imperials, 3 of my most favorite edc's are an imperial Barlow, an Imperial peanut, and an imperial h6 ( small Bowie style belt knife )
I don't really know what steel they used but I'm thinking something between 1045 and 1085.

Shcrade did a pretty good job with their carbon steel, and so did western with their 1095cv fixed blades.

I'm not sure if you're into fixed blades, but the western model 48b looks like the perfect sized little edc belt knife.
 
Hickory n steel said:
You gotta love the old carbon steel imperials, 3 of my most favorite edc's are an imperial Barlow, an Imperial peanut, and an imperial h6 ( small Bowie style belt knife )
I don't really know what steel they used but I'm thinking something between 1045 and 1085.

Shcrade did a pretty good job with their carbon steel, and so did western with their 1095cv fixed blades.

I'm not sure if you're into fixed blades, but the western model 48b looks like the perfect sized little edc belt knife.
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I'm having a hard time posting with the new format of the site. Don't know if this will work or not. Not into fixed blades at the time, just folders with one or two blades, 3-1/4 - 3-1/2" closed. I checked out some of the Robesons on an auction site, and even worn out ones go for a lot. Yikes! How was the steel in the old Western folders?
 
KBA said:
I'm certain someone will correct if Im wrong, but for some reason I recall reading here that the heat treatment of steel in that time period was inconsistent. It may have been another era and I am mistaken.
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I'm not saying you are wrong but I've never heard of such a thing. Back then knife steel was on average a lower hardness than similar types of steel still used today, which I believe the main reason was for ease of sharpening. Most of the knife manufacturers at that time really prided the quality of the steel and proper heat treatment in their products, it was frequently a very prominent subject when it came to advertising the quality of their knives.
 
TheChunk91 said:
I'm not saying you are wrong but I've never heard of such a thing. Back then knife steel was on average a lower hardness than similar types of steel still used today, which I believe the main reason was for ease of sharpening. Most of the knife manufacturers at that time really prided the quality of the steel and proper heat treatment in their products, it was frequently a very prominent subject when it came to advertising the quality of their knives.
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Brother, I very well could be wrong. I do remember reading on the lower hardness. For some reason I think I remember reading the phrase, "you never knew on the quality of the heat treat with those lower rockwell hardness." Yet, I may actually be combining two different conversations.
 
From my experience, the older knives did have lower RC values. This is why I mostly prefer newer GEC's as my carbon steel users. I'm not a big fan of soft steel blades on my slipjoints.

I think the issue you're thinking of, is the steel itself. My guess is that steel may not have been as standardized as it is today. Manufacturers were trying what they could get their hands on, playing with formulations, in search of superior steel. Sometimes it worked out. Sometimes it didn't. Secrets were held tightly, and steels were given unusual names. Lesser manufacturers may have used some very dubious types of steel.

And I have a hard time believing that heat treatment could have been as consistently good back then, as it is now. We've come a long way with mass production in our manufacturing methods.
 
I have a 1940s Remington that seems harder than my other carbon steels such as Northwoods, Shrade, "Soligen", and Henry Sears.
 
I've noticed the older US-made Schrades have very consistent carbon steel blades. One way I test this is by *gently* trying to strike a spark off the blade spine with a piece of flint. It's an interesting test and a useful survival skill -- and another reason to love good carbon steel! Anyway, only carbon steel will work, and it can't be either too soft or too hard. Well, the older Schrade blades are right in the zone and will throw sparks consistently. They also take a wicked edge that can be maintained nicely with a little stropping.
 
Another vote for Schrade here. You can usually get a dirty but solid USA Old Timer on Ebay for less than $20.
 
supratentorial said:
Can you give a reference supporting the claim that Rough Rider is using 1095? The ad copy that I've seen on the dealer website incorrectly states 440 --probably just copied from the stainless knives. I would be shocked if it is actually 1095. I've heard rumors that it's 1075 but they are just rumors.
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The carbon steel Rough Riders are the former COLT branded carbon steel knives.
I am 98% sure the ad copy for the Colt specified 1095.
I know my COLT canoe with carbon steel blades holds an edge quite well.
The Colt blades are thicker or heavier duty than those of my Imperial (Ireland) Barlow, Case CV Canoe, and Case 031 sheepsfoot, though.
 
afishhunter said:
The carbon steel Rough Riders are the former COLT branded carbon steel knives.
I am 98% sure the ad copy for the Colt specified 1095.
I know my COLT canoe with carbon steel blades holds an edge quite well.
The Colt blades are thicker or heavier duty than those of my Imperial (Ireland) Barlow, Case CV Canoe, and Case 031 sheepsfoot, though.
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The only reference I could find was for a Colt hatchet that is advertised as 1075. I haven't seen anything other than "carbon steel" on the folders. When the steel isn't specified, it is usually because it's not the best. It would be strange for them not to advertise the steel if it's 1095, the same steel used in $100 knives from GEC (and previously used in $20 knives from Schrade). I wonder if the sales folks at the dealer have more info. I'm guessing they won't know but I may shoot them an email.
 
GEC knives have a pretty high hardness at about 58 hrc. I'd also recommend checking out Higonokami knives. Their steel is in the 60s hardness. You could also get carbon steel knives which are softer. Douk Douks are good quality carbon steel knives which are about 53 hrc hardness. They still hold their edge well despite being softer than standard knives. Mercator k55k knives are also good.
 
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What were the heyday years of Schrade? Is any pre-stainless steel blade from Schrade as good as the next, or is there a certain time period when they were all good?
 
idahoguy said:
What were the heyday years of Schrade? Is any pre-stainless steel blade from Schrade as good as the next, or is there a certain time period when they were all good?
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I don't know what pre stainless would mean. Schrade made stainless and carbon steel knives simultaneously. I'm not aware of any bad Schrade usa knives, but the Ulster (Schrade) boy scout knife I had seemed to be pretty soft.
 
Here's a pic showing Schrade's USA-made heat treat schedules - sorry, I'm not sure when this dates to.

You can see their 1095 target HRc was in the range 57-59, harder than some of their main competitors.

FB280878-9C2E-475A-B315-F53D76341010_zpsp5lrnmsa.jpg


Their 1095 takes a nice fine edge, keeps it well, and has a good balance of sharpenability IMHO.

GEC use an unspecified ice or cryo quenching and tempering treatment - per the 'Frozen Forged' line in their motto.

All other things being equal, this should produce a metallurgically superior steel, than Schrade's snap temper, with more complete martensitic transformation, less retained austenite, and improved microstructure.

I find GEC's 1095 steel to be excellent at taking a fine edge.
 
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