Help need heat treat for 1095

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william8284

Joined
Apr 30, 2010
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I read the sticky's however I decied to try to heat treat my first 2 knives made out of 1095. I know it is harder to heat treat than say 1080. I heated it to non magnetic then let it go little longer. I quenched in veg oil. I know it wasn't the best methods but these were knives I am learning to grind and get a feel with. I figured I wouldnt get the full potential out of the steel.

I tried the file test seemed ok thought it might be just the scale coming off. I grounf the scale off and put a edge on it. I did the brass rod test and if I did it right it failed bad. I also checked two other knives one a ontario knife made out of 1095 it passes. The other a benchmade out of 154 it failed as bad as my home made knife. Which doesnt surprise both of the benchmade with 154 has failed most test I put them up to. I put the brass rod in a vise and blade at round a 20 degree angle and drew the knife using force to deform edge on brass. Did I do this right.

If I did all this right I need to find some one to heat treat the other knife. I haven't ground the edge down on it yet. I dont know of anyone around me that can do it so will have to send it off. Any help would be greatly appreacated.
 
william8284 said:
I read the sticky's however I decied to try to heat treat my first 2 knives made out of 1095. I know it is harder to heat treat than say 1080. I heated it to non magnetic then let it go little longer. I quenched in veg oil. I know it wasn't the best methods but these were knives I am learning to grind and get a feel with. I figured I wouldnt get the full potential out of the steel.

I tried the file test seemed ok thought it might be just the scale coming off. I grounf the scale off and put a edge on it. I did the brass rod test and if I did it right it failed bad. I also checked two other knives one a ontario knife made out of 1095 it passes. The other a benchmade out of 154 it failed as bad as my home made knife. Which doesnt surprise both of the benchmade with 154 has failed most test I put them up to. I put the brass rod in a vise and blade at round a 20 degree angle and drew the knife using force to deform edge on brass. Did I do this right.

If I did all this right I need to find some one to heat treat the other knife. I haven't ground the edge down on it yet. I dont know of anyone around me that can do it so will have to send it off. Any help would be greatly appreacated.
Click to expand...


There are quite a few of us knifemakers in Ga, although I don't know of anyone off hand that far south.

check out the Georgia Custom Knifemaker Guild
http://georgiaknifemakersguild.com/
 
Ok I might have jumped the gun to quick I retested with a file and it just skates off the blade barley scratching it. I think I screwed up the brass rod test I may have used the wrong angle. I like thinner edges than normal I like the slicing effect of a thin angle. I tested the file on a piece of barstock and it ate it up. I also tested the Ontario Knife and it just skated as well. I may actualy have a knife not a letter opener after all. If the file skates then it hardened properely right?
 
This is going to seem harsh, but there is obviously a disconnect between reading the stickies and following them.1095 cannot be adequately heat treated by bringing to non magnetic (1413 f) and holding it there, then plunging into vegetable oil. If you just got past non magnetic, you were not hot enough, chances are that if you did get hot enough, if your oil was not preheated you did not cool it fast enough and got pearlite, with vegetable oil even preheated, if your blade is not really thin you will still get pearlite. Read and understand the working with the three steel types stickies. You also neglected to let us know what you are using for a heat source, with that info we can better troubleshoot your process and actually help you.
More detail brings more complete answers.

-Page
 
It isnt harsh I understand I used what I had and tried to get the best results I could. I used a oak fire with lots of coals. I preheated the oil. I had both edges down near the thickness of a dime. I got it to non magnetic and kept it in the coals for maybe 10 minutes . I understand I used some very primative techniques hopeing to pull off a desent shop knife. I intend swap over to d2 and send out for heat treat once I get some more practice.
 
If the heat went to beyond non-magnetic, 1414°, for 10 minutes, you may have succeeded enough to make a usable blade. Not the best, but usuable. Re-temper at 450° and see how it works. Too many people are more concerned with hardness than how a blade acually holds up. You have nothing to lose by trying. A properly hardened blade of 1095 should be a tad brittle at at 400°.
 
The first knife heattreat must have been ok it is hardened. I retested the brass rod and it passed at a less of a angle around 2o to 25 degrees it skates the file quite nicely. One didnt take the heat treat well there is a soft spot in the blade so I will send it off. I quess I learned a couple things first with 1095 send it out or get much better way of treating. 2. Read and follow the sticky's to a T. I am happy however that the first one worked out. I know I am not likely to have gotten the best out of 1095 but it should be ok for around the shop. Thanks for the help and correction. Every one needs that from time to time.
 
I have found the brass rod test to be unreliable. Every knife I carry has variably passed and failed the brass rod test at different times. You'll probably have to just start cutting stuff to see if it will make it as a knife. I heat treated some kiridashi made from 1095 and they would skate a file, but didn't hold an edge for love or money.
 
the only brass rod test that's worth a damn is can you carve then cut through a brass rod without dulling unacceptably, everything else is hokum. Of course the thing that will tell you is that your edge is harder than brass and that you have the appropriate edge geometry for cutting soft metal
:D

-Page

The real test is cut what you designed the knife to cut, and if it cuts and keeps cutting, and you don't get blisters using it, it is a good knife.
 
It's great to practice, and you don't need to spend a bunch of money having a practice blade heat treated if it is for your use... as long as you understand that the blade is sub-par (And it sounds like you know this). Steel can be work hardened to the point of files skidding or drill Bits melting, I am sure your steel is harder than it was when you started working on it. That is a move in the right direction in my book! (My book is very thin BTW!)

How did your blade fail the Brass rod test Chip out or bend around the brass? I am guessing that it chipped out due to the 400 F temper.
 
heres what i use.

1095
slow heat to 1475 , soak for 4 to 5 min bigger blade , smaller blades 3 to 4 min.
Oil should be 130 to 140f. Park#50
Temp @450 2 times for 2 hours at a time, with cool-down between
vern
 
The real problem is the heat source. While Rambo was able to HT a knife in a camp fire, it is a very poor way to do HT.

The reason you thought the blade was bad is that the HT method left a heavy layer of decarb on the blade. That is more than the scale from HT, but a layer of metal with the carbon burned out of it. This layer will be soft and the file will bite it. After several sharpenings, or a good heavy sanding, the good steel shows up and suddenly the knife has a good ( or fair) edge. To some degree all blades done in an open HT oven or forge have this. There are ways to deal with it , but none of them would work very well in an open campfire.

I suggest you look into building a simple forge. It can be as simple as a brake drum charcoal forge, or go a bit more than that and build a simple venturi forge to run on propane.
 
me2 said:
I have found the brass rod test to be unreliable. Every knife I carry has variably passed and failed the brass rod test at different times. You'll probably have to just start cutting stuff to see if it will make it as a knife. I heat treated some kiridashi made from 1095 and they would skate a file, but didn't hold an edge for love or money.
Click to expand...

Not surprising as I have pointed out many times in the past but, in order to counter the excellent level of misleading PR the brass rod “test” has received, it bears repeating- flexing the blade in any way is much more affected by the geometry and thickness than by the heat treatment. I personally have no reason to be harsh or blunt when the physical facts are the physical facts, steel obeys the laws of physics not the commands of our favorite magazine articles. But this is the tragedy of such misinformation- a guy trying to learn may be scrapping what could be really good blades because a widely accepted, yet very flawed test, tells him he has failed.

Now with that being said what I am missing is how the blades failed the brass rod “test”??? William8284, did they chip or did they bend?

If they chipped then the immediate thing to do is examine the grain size in the chipped area. Is it large or sugary looking, or is it fine and velvety in appearance? If it is large you overheated the 1095, if it is fine all you need to do is draw back your temper more and you are golden.:thumbup:

If the blade failed the “test” by bending or deforming you are then a victim of the other “foolproof” test that is a consummate liar – the file “test”. In which case your temperature or quench was inadequate and you have an edge loaded with fine pearlite, which the file will not read as it skates off the sparse martensite alone.

Proper temp for 1095 is between 1475F and 1485F one can get as high as 1500F and still have success but this steel is the least forgiving of any of the 10XX series and will not tolerate many deviations made while the smith is learning. I won’t touch on the quench, as I only want to help, not arm for battle, but it does need to be as fast and consistent as an oil can get, for this steel.

If you nailed all of it dead on for 1095 you can expect MUCH higher tempering temperatures to bring the edge down to 60-61 Rockwell. If you forgo pushing on metal rods, or adjust the geometry to handle it, a 63 or even higher 1095 blade would be an excellent little cutter, just not a chopper. For heavy cutting and chopping you will want to draw it back to around 60HRC or below (depending once again on the geometry of the edge).
 
The edge basicaly sheared off clean almost like a wire edge would. I did have the edge thin to a 30 degree inclusive. I took the edge down to a fine and stroped a few strokes to get a hair popping edge. I didnt try to polish the edge. I ran my finger across the bent edge and it just flaked off. I know there wasn't a wire edge least not that bad. Thanks for the info guys. I have one more blade and 3 more good pieces of 1095 that I will send off for the treat or build me a propane forge. I like that idea sound like fun.
 
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