Help! Need Normalizing Advice

JW Knives

JW Knives

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Feb 22, 2011
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At home we have a propane powered forge.

I have been working with some 1080 and 1095, 1/4 inch stock.

So it;s time to HT and I would like to do at least one normalizing run. From what I've read I'm going to need to hold the blade at temp for 7-10 mins before letting it cool. Do any of you veterans have any tips on the best way to hold a blade at temp using a propane/gas powered forge?

Or are there any alternative routes I would take for this step?

Thanks in advance
 
Unless you have a temp. readout/controller in the forge I would use the 1084 and forget about holding at temp any longer than it takes to get the heat even.
 
We don't have temp control on the forge.
Please feel free to correct anything here but this has been my process so far and I've had good results.

1. Grind to shape, leave a bit of extra material on the edge
2. Normalize by heating to non magnetic and letting rest and cool to room temp
3. Re heat blade portion to just before cherry and quench in oil, (vertically, blade first) for about 10 seconds, then I drop the blade in and let it cool
4. 2 tempering sessions for 1.5 hours at 425

Does this sound like an appropriate method?
Please keep in mind that I have read the sticky's here and read other sites and I know that heat treating steel can be a very complex subject.

What I am looking for is a simple, straight forward method. Does the method I listed above make sense to you guys?
Thanks again.
 
Looks ok to me, with a couple of comments. Step 3, drop the color and use your magnet again. Pay close attention to your normalizing heats and you can probably figure out at about which color your blade goes nonmagnetic, but color varies with ambient light conditions. Also step 3, get the fastest oil you can find. Canola or vet grade mineral oil are better than goo/sludge/motor oil. McMaster 11 second oil is better than that. Step 4, 425 is a good place to start. Test the edge for chipping after the first temper. If it chips, you'll need to bump up the second temper to 450.
 
Non magnetic is 1414... with 1084 you want 1475-1500 degrees for quenching temp and 1600 for normalizing...

Here's a good resource... http://www.cashenblades.com/steel/1084.html

A trick I just learned from a recent thread is to put salt on a blade.... heat with a torch from the bottom, when the salt melts memorize the color of the steel. Salt melts at 1474 degrees!
 
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jkf96a said:
Looks ok to me, with a couple of comments. Step 3, drop the color and use your magnet again. Pay close attention to your normalizing heats and you can probably figure out at about which color your blade goes nonmagnetic, but color varies with ambient light conditions. Also step 3, get the fastest oil you can find. Canola or vet grade mineral oil are better than goo/sludge/motor oil. McMaster 11 second oil is better than that. Step 4, 425 is a good place to start. Test the edge for chipping after the first temper. If it chips, you'll need to bump up the second temper to 450.
Click to expand...

You would do well to lose the magnet. It will only tell you that you need a little more heat. 50° to 75° more heat. The fastest oil is Parks #50. Canola is about as good as you will do with grocery store oils. For 1084 , canola should do well enough. For 1095, maybe OK, but not the best.

JW, forget the 1095 until you are ready to buy some Parks #50 oil. It is not a friendly steel to HT without experience and or, heat control. Save it for later, and stick with the 1084.
 
Based on my limited experience, by the time I figured out that the magnet wouldn't stick, my blade was already 50-75 degrees hotter. Maybe I needed a different magnet setup. Both LRB and Fluidsteel are correct though.
 
Isn't 425 degrees too high? I've always heard 350 degrees, or therebout, was the optium tempering temp for 1095. What RC are you getting with a 425 degree tempering cycle?

Still learning,

Dave
 
Even 475° is not too much, if the 1095 got to or near, full hard. A 350° temper would be a guarantee of chipping. Where did you here such info as that?
 
I can't comment on 1095, but I can tell you about 1084. 1475 degrees with 5 minute soak (temp controlled), then quench in Maxim's Duratherm-G 10 second oil, then temper at 450 x2 hours x2 gives me 60-61 RC consistently. No edge chipping.

I did also verify that the same process with a 425 degree temper produced a chippy edge, but that was before I got a RC tester.
 
there was a long thread a while back on tempering cycles (isn't there always?), and I was told by several people to go to 425. However, Kevin Cashen piped in and said, and I'm paraphasing, that 350 is a good temp for 1095. All I can say is, none of the blades I've temnpered at 350 has ever chipped and they hold an edge well.
 
David Stifle said:
there was a long thread a while back on tempering cycles (isn't there always?), and I was told by several people to go to 425. However, Kevin Cashen piped in and said, and I'm paraphasing, that 350 is a good temp for 1095. All I can say is, none of the blades I've temnpered at 350 has ever chipped and they hold an edge well.
Click to expand...

Sounds way low to me, but whatever works for you. My first suspicion is maybe a typo by Kevin. Most flintlock rifle frizzens are 1095, and they are recommended to be tempered at 375°, and even then some break if the L bend is designed too thin. At a 375° temper, you can barely scratch a frizzen with even the corner of a new file. That is pretty hard, and somewhat on the brittle side. My second suspicion is that maybe you aren't getting your blades as hard as you may think in the quench. My third suspicion is that your temper heat is higher than you think. Would you mind going over your HT process? You have my curiosity up.
 
Hi Jason,

I don't think Kevin made a typo, because at the end that that particular thread I'd posted that I'd start tempering my knives from now on at 425. Kevin emailed me to say, not so fast, 350 is a good temp for 1095. Frankly, I'm confused now. I did a search the other night on this forum on 1095 tempering, and the various posts were all over the place- going from a range of 350-400 in some posts, and up to 450 in others.

As for my HT process-I use charcoal- bring the blade up the magnetic and hold it for six or seven minutes, then quickly quench in oil and promptly temper at 350, sometimes 365, depending on what I want. I usually clamp the blade so it comes out straight. All I can say about my results is the blades easily chop oak and hickory, they haven't chipped yet and hold the edge well.

I am more than willing to try tempering higher, but there is so much conflicting information out there, surely there is a "right" temp to use. Maybe Kevin can chip in again.
 
David Stifle said:
there was a long thread a while back on tempering cycles (isn't there always?), and I was told by several people to go to 425. However, Kevin Cashen piped in and said, and I'm paraphasing, that 350 is a good temp for 1095. All I can say is, none of the blades I've temnpered at 350 has ever chipped and they hold an edge well.
Click to expand...

He rises from the grave long enough to ask:

Does anybody have a link to that thread? I would really need to see in what context I would make that recommendation, and my mind is not sharp enough to recall all I have typed over the years. But under normal circumstances, if full hardness was achieved I wouldn't be comfortable with that temp for anything but snap tempering. It may be a starting point for walking in a very high hardness edge on 1095.

Edited to add: Now that I read your last post I could have been recommending it as a safe starting point for multiple tempers for your heat treating methods, without exact soak temperatures tempering can be all over the map and it is safest to start rather low and walk it in. If the HRC is 60 or below after the initial 350F it would indicate a need for adjustments to the soak, assuming the quench is adequate.

At any rate... carry on...

He says as he sinks back into the mist.
 
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Awww, crap! I just found the email Kevin sent, dated 15 July 2009, and in it he says...Don't be so quick to go with the higher temps, 400 degrees is fine for 5160.

Got that, 5160 steel. Kevin then goes into more detail, and darned if I know how or where I got the 350 temp. But guess I'd better temp higher from now on. Glad I chimed in on this thread.
 
That's part of the problem with heat treat "recipes." Did you notice how many things I specified (and I'm sure I left some out). Austentize temp, soak time, quench medium, temper temperature all can affect final hardness and performance. Change one and you are likely to have changes in the other. If you don't get full hardness out of the quench, either because of temperature control or an ill-suited quench medium, then it's possible that the tempering temperature that will give the "best" performance for that blade could in fact be 350. If that were the case, the performance would not be as good as if you had achieved full hardness that required a 450 degree temper for "best" performance.

The key to heat treating as I understand it is this: control the variables. The more control you have over the HT variables, particularly time, temp, quench speed and temper temperature, the more you can make consistently high performing knives. You can control variables by experience (judging color of the steel) or by equipment (digital controlled temps).

And as a final point, let me add this: three years ago I made my first blade and cracked it quenching in water. The second one went in used motor oil. The third one went in vegetable oil. By the 20th I was using vet grade mineral oil. By the 75th I got a kiln. By the 125th I got some "real" quench oil. It's a process. Don't give up learning or trying just because you don't have an evenheat and a KMG. You can make remarkable progress (and some really fine knives) by applying yourself to learning.
 
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