help pick a 1000 grit water stones

[the possum]

Hey all.
I'm helping look for a ceramic water stone that will mainly be used on a Phil Wilson S30V fillet knife for a friend. We've experimented on it with several different edge types and finishes left by coarse through fine grits, and he really seems to love the mix of toothy bite and polished push cutting ability left by my Shapton 1000 grit slip stone. Note that this is after the Shapton has been lapped on a very fine (worn out) diamond plate- this stone behaves very differently when freshly lapped vs. letting it get a bit worn to expose fresh grit. The scratches are way more coarse when it's a bit worn.

Also, this knife has a very thin edge and minimal edge bevel- it was practically zero ground and then kissed with a coarser stone to form the edge bevel. And, I like using micro bevels for touch ups and in general. Primary sharpening is done at less than 10 degrees per side, with a mircobevel around 15 or so to give it stability to cut through fish rib bones.

So he needs a very hard stone. The edge bevel isn't wide enough to really ride on with a soft stone, and I tried my Norton 4K/8K combo stone on it once, but the Norton is just way too soft for this application and gouges horribly when trying to apply the microbevel. (It works great on my antique straight razors though).

I've been trying to read up on options here, so let me know if I'm on the right track.

It sounds like the Shapton Pro series is about the hardest ceramic waterstone available, and the Shapton Glass stones are a bit softer & wear faster. Is this correct?

Next choice is the Bester- I've also read these have a hard binder. They're cheaper than the Shaptons, so if there's not a lot of difference we'd probably go this route.

Choceras also sound like they have a hard binder. How do they compare to the two/three above?

From what I've gathered, the King and Naniwa stones, and most of the J-nats would be too soft for this application.

Thoughts welcome.

 

[Jason B.]

Because of the steel your actually very limited in the waterstones that will correctly hone the steel. The high wear resistance from the ultra hard elements within the steel prove to be too much for the abrasive of many waterstones. A "ceramic waterstone" is not really ceramic, the binder that holds the abrasive together is a type of ceramic but the abrasive is either aluminum oxide, silicon carbide, or for most of the newer stones they use a "green carbide" abrasive. Some stones like the Sigma power select II could actually be considered a "ceramic stone" by the way they are made, these stones have no binder and are 100% abrasive. It's more the process than the actual material that determines the stone type.

As for stones my first choice would be diamond because there would be no issue with its abilities to hone the steel (a Fine DMT would be most like a 1k waterstone). As for waterstones I'd probably go with the Sigma's for the same reason. I have never used the shaptons but if that's the edge liked you would need the same stone lapped in the same way, you "customized" the stone so you will only see those results if done that way.

Your sharpening angle is a bit on the extreme side and the use of a microbevel with such a coarse grit kinda defeats the purpose. Because of the thin grind a thicker angle can be used without looseing performance. Try 15 per side in a single bevel configuration.

 

[Phil Wilson]

Possum, If you want to keep it simple, here is what I do on my own fillet knives. I have CPM S30V, CPM 154 and CPM S90V in my kit. The Norton fine, silicon carbide stone cuts the caribides nice and clean. I use Windex or equal for a lube, cleaner. A 30 degree included angle seems best, a little more if your friend is fillieting Strippers or other fish that have tough bones behind the head. If you get a little burr on the edge strop it off with a loaded strop and the blade almost flat to the leather. You end up with a very agressive edge, perfect for fish or even to bone out a leg of lamb. Get some Manila rope and test the edge and experiment till you get that scrunchy sound while cutting. Phil

 

[the possum]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Some more info-
knifenut-
I mainly used diamonds for the sharpening & just did the final stages on my Shapton. I didn't even realize they used alumina oxide for the abrasive, so it's possible I just didn't use it enough to really see the effect from the harder vanadium carbides. Of course I'd like to select a stone hard enough to cut vanadium carbides as well, though it's probably less of an issue at these grit levels. While I do like diamonds, I'm shying away from them for my buddy. He's looking to spend some money on something that will last a long time & be consistent. Once my diamond stones have worn down, the finish they leave is rather inconsistent, and in some cases the diamonds are completely worn away from the edges of the stone (from sharpening knives with no choil), which leaves an area that galls and dulls the edge with one errant stroke. I don't think SiC papers are a good match for this particular situation either, though I do use them myself occasionally.

I use my little Shapton for polishing my miniature knives, and when freshly lapped, leaves a polished surface about like (ANSI) 1200-1500 grit papers would. This is what we put on his fillet knife. If I let the stone wear down a little, comparitively speaking, the scratches look more like 500 grit (1000 grit Japanese) which sounds correct for that stone.

I looked into the Sigma Power stones you mentioned, and I think their 3000 grit stone might be a great fit for this situation. This would be about 1200 grit American, so it should match the edge finish he liked. He's not going to be sharpening plane irons or razors; this fillet knife's edge is one continuous sweeping curve. So he won't have to worry about keeping it lapped flat, and can just use it as-is without worry of changing the way it polishes via lapping. Win/win. Just to verify though, you think these stones should be hard enough to apply a microbevel without gouging, and the abrasive is hard enough to cut vanadium carbides, correct? Next issue is just finding someplace to buy them...

Yeah, the shallow primary sharpening angle is probably less than many are used to hearing, but then again, Phil's knife has some extreme performance. There's no reason for the whole edge to be thicker. Also, a convex or multi bevel edge allows more control on the depth of cut when skinning the fillet- a single angle edge will want to dig in one way or the other more readily. The microbevel is just to prevent gross rolling on the bones rather than issues with carbide tear out. Even if you're referring to the micro teeth being more susceptible to rolling on bone, this finish seems to provide just the right amount of agressiveness he likes for the flesh, as mentioned.

Phil-
Good to hear from you too. He has one of the Norton silicon carbide stones, and that beast is awesome for hogging steel. I really like the coarse aggressive edge it leaves for a lot of things, and used a similar stone for years myself. But it hasn't worked out for his needs as well as hoped. It seems best when you can apply a good slicing motion, but doesn't do so well at push cutting. And for bluegill or smaller bass, there's not enough weight to resist a slice- it just slides all over the cutting board. At least that's what I'm getting from him- I'm not much of a fisherman myself. So we experimented with finer edges and he likes the push cutting ability mentioned above, for skinning fillets, for example. He can just hold them at the tail and push the blade straight through, riding over the skin against the cutting board.

I know he also used this knife to good effect when his family butchered several hogs last winter. I'm glad I sent him to you for a good knife- I get to fondle it occasionally too. : )

 

[Jason B.]

The sigma power stones are 100% silicon carbide so they will easily grind the steel. With the speed of these stones you could probably jump from a fine Sic stone and be ok. Like diamonds these stones likely won't leave a polish or one like you may expect, because the stone is all abrasive and a very hard one it will yield as much polish as the grit/scratch pattern allows."Softer" stones like your shapton are not always cutting the steel and the polish you are likely seeing is because the fine slurry is polishing through burnishing. The steel is resisting the abrasive so much it causing a polishing of the steel. Toolsfromjapan is where I plan on getting mine, email Stu for questions on purchase or the stones themselves. He's very helpful and really likes those stones so he would be able to better answer your questions on them.

Sorry to hear of your troubles with diamonds but its a bit from your own doing. Though I try I admit I sometimes have a heavy hand so I know of the issues you speak of with your diamonds hones. If you are wearing away diamonds then you are using too much pressure, the only other way you could loose diamonds is if the plating was chipping off the steel base. The care and use of diamonds can be a learning process, if I had the knowledge I have now I know my stones too would be in better shape and produce a better finish. If used correctly they should have the life of any other stone.

With hand sharpening the angle will never be perfect so a 15 degree angle for me means anything within 3 degrees of that mark. This also means that all my edges are convex to some degree. The use of a microbevel can work very well but only if its done right, before when I said it was "defeating the purpose" that's because the grit is still coarse enough that using it to set a micro enlarges the micro too much and decreases it abilities and performance. If you are using less than 5 strokes per side with very light pressure it might work out but if you can see the microbevel then its not micro. basically a single bevel "15 degree" edge will have similar enough cutting power but have better toughness to resist deformations when cutting through the bone.

 

[changeofseasons]

+1 on the Sigma Power stones... but with one exception. I prefer the 3F Carbon #700 over the 1k Select II stone. The 3F Carbon is similar to the Select II stone, but there is a little bit of ceramic binder in it. I just think that pure sintered SiC gouges too easily, especially when reworking a knife tip.

Are you trying to avoid aluminum oxide all together? If so, the Select II 3000 stone probably isn't for you. I need to double check w/ Sigma, but I don't think there is any SiC, green or black, in it. If not, the 3k, 6k, and 10k are all excellent stones that cut amazingly fast.