Help Price a New Balisong!

K

Knife Outlet

Joined
Jan 4, 1999
Messages
3,000
It's a quiz but an easy one. I'm just looking for input from the group.

Let's say a new knife manufacturer were to introduce a well made, American made Balisong or butterfly knife. Let's say the blade were ATS-34 and done in the same profile and size as the Phillipine original. Let's say the handles were made like tactical knives with liners, spacers, screws and a choice of handle material - carbon fiber, G10, micarta, bone, whatever.

Would you have an interest in such a knife and, if so, how much would you expect to pay for it? If you have questions about the details of the knife, I'd rather you answer them for yourself and the group and put a price on what you come up with.

Thanks for your input.

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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
First off, I'd say there will most likely be some interest. I'm sort of in the market, after I get through school anyway. For a balisong with an ATS 34 blade, titanium handles, and very close tolerances with good fit and finish, I'd probably go up to $150, $250 or so. This is of course assuming the fit and finish is above average. This sounds great to me, I've been wanting to get a nice balisong to play with. Another thing I personally would like would be a less expensive model that used 440C or AUS-8A as a blade steel with simple scales, but which retained close tolerances and decent fit and finish and fell into the $50-$75 range. In other words a well-built user that maybe isn't quite so pretty. It could be used to develop skill with a balisong, without requiring a huge investment. I would definetly buy one of these. The blade steel isn't a huge issue, since it would only be fipped open and shut for the most part. That and if you're learning to use it and drop it on cement, you won't kick yourself so hard. This can of course also be done with a cheap Taiwan made deal, but these always develop so much blade play they are unsafe. That's my take on it anyway.

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Just because I talk to myself does not make me crazy. Now, when I listen to myself, that makes me crazy.
 
I would buy one and price wise I spend from $80 to around $125 give or take.


Try posting this in the Filipino Combat Arts forum as well as not all who go onto that forum pop in here at the General Forum.

[This message has been edited by Donna Barnas (edited 02-10-2000).]
 
Fred,

Benchmade is reintroducing their Balisong line with a 6Al-4V Ti handled, torx screw pivoted, washered, sandvik 12c-somethinged, weehawk blade and their MSRP is $160. Check em out at www.benchmade.com under the Benchmade 2000 heading. Hope this helps.

greg
 
I got my first balisong today... a cheap one manufactured in Taiwan (which in a way is my homeland, though I'm a US citizen). I had no clue how to use one, so I spent about 5 hours today practicing with it and it's really fun to play with. Sadly, it's kind of illegal for me to carry it in the state of Illinois, so I'm not sure I'd buy a more expensive one, otherwise I certainly would.
frown.gif


--Chang the Asian Janitorial Apparatus
P.S. if this knife goes into production, they should call it the Asian Janitorial Apparatus balisong!
biggrin.gif
Then I'd certainly buy it.

[This message has been edited by Comrade Chang (edited 02-11-2000).]
 
If you make the scales full-length you'll have me in an armlock and I'll pay whatever you ask. However, for a real quality knife you'll be going up against Benchmade (as you know), and will probably want to price competitively.

If it was really comparable to BM quality I would drop $160 without blinking just because there isn't much variety out there in the world of quality production balisongs. Okay, there isn't any variety.

Let me reiterate: Please, please, please do full length scales! As for the material, use Micarta and carbon fiber and I'll buy one of each, paying whatever extra is required.

Unfortunately I'm a balisong fanatic, so I'm little help on prices. I'll just pay. I'm thrilled that someone is considering doing this--it's about time.
 
There is a fellow here in the Portland area who makes swords, knives, etc., including very nice balisongs if asked. He charges about $350 for what you're describing. I'd have to say that that $300 price range is what I find is minimal for a good custom balisong. Most makers I talk to won't begin for less than $450. Don't deceive yourself: there's a lot of work in a good balisong. Everything had to fit just right. Personally, I'd be very skeptical of a custom for less than about $350. I don't think a skilled maker can put in the time and level of craftsmanship I'm looking for for less. Heck, you're hardpressed to find a fixed-blade with a 5" ATS-34 blade (the raw steel alone will run you $80) and then micarta handles (the raw material alone will run you $20) by a reputed maker for $200 and a fixed blade is 100 times easier than a balisong.

As for a production knife? Benchmade is targeting their new one at about $150. They've got a lot of name value, but they've also got a great product. So, I'd expect a well-made production balisong to be about $150, more with micarta or bone. On the other hand, I suspect that Benchmade is not making as much on the 42 as they make on their other knives since $150 is about what you pay for a good tactical folder and, again, a balisong is much more complicated.



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.4cs.net/~gollnick
 
Any good knife is worth a msrp of $150 minimum. Most avid balisong fanatics can flip 'through' several cheap balisongs in a short period, so a high quality one would be welcome, at least giving an option to the buyers.
 
To be honest this is a bad time to be ambitious about a 'so so' balisong (opportunity knocks)
frown.gif
you are 'fighting' against benchmade really who has the history and name to back them up. A few months ago many fanatics who scould afford it could afford it woudl pay 500.0 for a custom balisong.

Mr. GOllnick is right too.. it is not easy to be competitive abou manufacturing a production balisong considering how much opporutnity cost you can lose.

You have to compete with the BM 42 but us fanatics like to expand our colelction 180 is a good price for what you are describing, but your advantage is the possibility of making it 'feel' like a custom.

Personally like it was mentioned before I would pay any price for variety 150.00-250.00 (max 350 if it blows me away) for what you are describing. (plus think about the discount retailers selling the 42 at 30% off eventually)

Your best bet would be to challenge BM in the custom department (which they dont have no more.. yet) and I would pay the 400.00 mark for it.

ALl in all I wish you good luck and I would love o support your bali cause.

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<A HREF="http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html
</A> If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]


 
Guys, I really appreciate the replys. This project started when I got involved in wanting to import high quality Balisongs from Batangas. As it turns out, importing them is simply illegal, period. Making them in the U.S. is perfectly legal, though, and in many states like Indiana where I'm located, ownership, use and carry is also perfectly legal.

This would be a production knife, Chuck. It would address the same market as the Benchmade 42 but would be quite a bit different in terms of construction, blade steel etc. I would see it as an alternative or perhaps a second knife for the same customer that would be interested in the BM42. The project is quite feasible but expensive and it requires some serious unit quantities to make the project hit the price area you guys are talking about with a high quality product. I have some serious reservations about that in particular because I can name some fairly well known production tac folders that have yet to hit the unit production requirement this project would require. I'm excited about the prospects of doing such a project but I'm unsure about demand. Perhaps we'll get some more input from you and others.

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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
Well, I think the interest is definitly there.

As for price, I personally don't go for insert type handles on a Bali, as they always fall apart on me. For that reason I would never pay as much for that type as I would for a good skeleton handled Bali.

Considering the BM 42 comes in at about the $150 mark (for a TOP quality Bali). I would probably cut myself off at $150 for what you described.

I might be convinced to pay a bit more just for the novelty of a new product, but I doubt that I would get more than 1 or 2. On the other hand I would (will!) purchase several of the BM skeleton handled Balis.


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Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com



[This message has been edited by Clay (edited 02-11-2000).]
 
I agree. Scales or inserts are just more to go wrong with it if it's an everyday user. Even my Japanese 80's Valor's and Fury's with the brass liners and stainless scales eventually fell apart. The pins fell out of the scales, the blades slapped the inside of the handles, etc. Carbon fiber or G10 scales could conceivably work, but the tang pin could not really contact them; it would have to be a shallow pin like on the BM's that contacted only metal. Otherwise, wouldn't you have splintering and the like? I'm only speculating of course. BM's customs with inserts were real lookers, but I'm not sure if even they could really take the everyday carry and abuse that a solid-handled model could. I even have a few concerns with the new titanium handles to be honest; to my thinking, 6ALV titanium is too soft a material to be clinking around. Maybe it's been hardened or treated like titanium blades? Then again, the 17?? "investment cast stainless" handles of the production BM's weren't necessarily that hard. I guess only time will tell. Professor.
 

sigh.

are our choices really restricted to either taiwan cheapies or >$100 benchmades/customs?

i really don't think a "so-so" balisong (which seems to have been defined as anything not in the price range of a custom or benchmade) would be competing in any way with the benchmades and the customs. the spyderco lightweight line, a damn high quality line, does not compete with their custom collaborations. it targets users who are after a quality, *affordable* knife. the two are not mutually exclusive.

i think it's erroneous to suppose that, just because the knife might have stainless rather than titanium handles, or bear some generic name rather than benchmade's, it won't have a chance on the market.

there must be plenty of balisong afficionados who can't quite swing >100 for a user. i know i can't. but a balisong in 440c, stainless handles, and reasonably strong pins for $50? absolutely. if you look at the current biphasic market for balisongs, i'd say that there's a big vacuum in that price range that's just begging to be filled.

if this can be done with other knife types (liner-crkt m-16; lockback-spyderco ltwt), etc.), i don't see any reason that it can't be done with balisong.

prin

 
Hmm, I think it would be possible to produce a quality bali song with stainless handles and quality steel blade reatailing for around $100. Certainly less than $200 and with the news that BM is re releasing the Bali Songs for retail of $160 you should price them for less.
I agree with some of the comments that a production bali could be made to retail in the $50 to $100 range, and still be of good quality. I think though that to do so, you would limit the options offered with the knives (handle stlyes and materials).
 
This is a wonderful post because the balisong famine appears to be ending. A few comments:
While we all generally agree that Benchmade(and PC before them) made the best production balisongs the issue is more complex. I remember as recently as 18 months ago I could buy a Benchmade balisong online or at a sore for $79 and $99. It wasn't till they become unavailable that the prices on these(and other balisongs) hit the roof. I'm not complaining mind you. By selling a portion of my collection I was able to buy a printer,software,books and other College expenses for my son. But if you only own one or two balisongs that you can replace easily there is no need to gobble up everything that is seen on ebay,yahoo,forums,etc.
In addition during the "golden days" there were some Japanmese models that were very close in quality to PC and Benchmade balisongs and you could buy these for well under $50. I think there is a huge,huge market for a balisong in the $50-100 dollar range. My brother and sister balisong lovers will spend high amounts but we are just a small group.
See my earlier post-it is not on balisongs specifically but the magical $100 ceiling.
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/001303.html

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Tim

[This message has been edited by timdennis (edited 02-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by timdennis (edited 02-13-2000).]
 
The URL does not seem to send you to the right thread and I'm not sure why. But if you do a search under my name you'll see a post $100-ceiling for most knives

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Tim

 
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