help sharpening D2 blade (Queen cutlery)

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catboat

Joined
May 22, 2005
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I have a Queen Cutlery Premium Hunter (4180) drop point Hunter with D2 steel blade. I'm having trouble trying to get a truly sharp edge on this blade. I can get a decent edge, but not "skin grabbing", definitely not "shaving sharp" or "hair popping sharp." I know these are all subjective terms-but I can get my little Buck Woodsman knife MUCH sharper than this blade.

I have used a Gatco diamond stone system (course/med/fine stone) at 22 and 25 degrees. I have used ceramic Xsticks, free hand DMT bench stones (med and fine) and various angles, carborundum stones, and a lilly white water stone-all to no avail.

Is thery a "best " angle to sharpen D2 steel? Is there a best system or method? Is this a possible heat treatment/hardness issue? If so, what Rockwell hardness value should D2 target for best results?

My knife:
http://www.cumberlandknifeworks.com....cgi?product=premium_hunters&keywords=&next=3

Comments and feedback welcome. Thanks in advance
 
Did you just purchase this knife? If so, I suspect that you have not actually sharpened the edge itself. Queen knives frequently come with a fairly obtuse edge, and it can take a little work to get them down to a lower angle. Mark the edge with a black marker, then sharpen it a little; look at the edge under magnification to see if you have removed material all the way to the very edge. If not, you are still working on removing the shoulders and reprofiling it. Once done, my Queen D2 blades are easy to get to very hair-popping sharp.

Also, check to see if you are getting a wire edge. I usually do it by running my finger across the flat of the blade and over the edge (start from the direction of the spine, and move your finger over the edge), on each side. You should not be able to feel any roughness at the very edge as you move your finger over it. If you do, it means you have a wire edge that needs to be removed. Sometimes stropping is the best for that.
 
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catboat said:
Is thery a "best " angle to sharpen D2 steel?
Click to expand...

D2 doesn't react well to really low angles, however these are under 15 degrees per side and usually this isn't an issue for most people. However if you do try to grind it really acute as in 5 degrees per side you may get edge cracking because the grain is too coarse.

The most common problem with D2 regarding sharpness is that the machinability is *LOW*. It could be just as simple as not spending enough time on the hones, expect multiple times the grinding time as for a Buck in 420HC as for D2 blades in general.

-Cliff
 
I got my D2 Queen mirror polished and razor sharp, but had to reprofile it taking the primary bevel down to about 15 degrees per side on a 120 grit silicon carbide stone and coarse diamond plate (takes some time since the steel is rather wear resistant), then taking it to my Shapton waterstones up to 15k grit, adding a secondary bevel of about 18 degrees per side (you may want to use 20 per side if you use a sharpmaker since it has fixed 15 and 20 degree angles) If you go much below 15 degrees per side, you'll get carbide knock out on the edge and it will start feeling like a very fine saw blade instead of a knife.
 
I reprofiled my Queen D2 whittler to about 10 degrees per side, and finished with the Sharpmaker at 30 degrees and have not had any edge problems with soft woods and on occassion oak. It shaves and cuts hanging newsprint easily, and my subjective impression is that it holds an edge longer than my 1095 Shrades or Case CV.

I have several Queens, and they've all come with an edge > 40 degrees inclusive.
 
Thanks for the replies folks. Looks like I need to spend some more "quality time" with my knife. I have used the magic marker/edge indicator. I put a new edge on at 22 and 25 degrees.

I hope you don't mind me asking a potentially very stupid question, but is the angle values you folks are stating 1 side or total edge angle? My Gatco diamond sharpening system (with clamp on guide/rods) has values of 15,19.22.25 and I think something in the area of 30ish degrees. I just want to make sure I'm using the correct angle, and not improperly either halfing or or doubling the value. The angles I'm reporting are the settings on the guide (22 adn 25 degrees). I think I will take it down to 19 degrees today and see what happens.

What I have experienced is getting an improved edge-to the point it does catch/grab my finger as I test the edge (mostly after eliminated the magic marker after using the medium stone. I can sense a subtle "wire edge" or burr, and with very light strokes, getting a peak sharpness. I have been stoking the edge on one side with a number of strokes (medium diamond stone) then flipping the knive to work the other side. I then take a very light stroke INTO the edge in attempt to remove the burr. This is when I get the peak sharpness-but it isn't what I would call "scary sharp." I then have taken the knife out of the clamp and stroke it lightly in a small,fixed X ceramic stick pocket sharpener at the intersection to align the edge. This seems to give a little improvement, but not much after that.

I'll try a lower angle (19') and see what develops.

One observation I may be noting is that the "elevating" portion of the Gatco system (the vertical section that has the various holes for the angle settings) is made of plastic. There is flexing of the system, which may be contributing to a non-constant edge. I'm also thinking I need to be applying less press to each stroke to minimize the flex. Perhaps I'll strap a small piece of angle iron to the vertical section to stiffen it up.

Back to the bench. Thanks for the input.
 
When I said 10 degess per side I meant the same as 20 degrees inclusive. The 30 degree setting on the Sharpmaker is inclusive.

I'd go ahead and use the 15 degree setting on the Gatco. The ceramic V sharpener might be a good way to finish if its fine, and assuming it sharpens at > 15 degrees per side.

The method I described works well for me as far as the burr goes. Establishing a microbevel with the Sharpmaker pretty much takes care of that. I'm suggesting that you use the ceramic sticks the same way.
 
catboat said:
I have been stoking the edge on one side with a number of strokes (medium diamond stone) then flipping the knive to work the other side. I then take a very light stroke INTO the edge in attempt to remove the burr. This is when I get the peak sharpness-but it isn't what I would call "scary sharp."
Click to expand...

It is possible to get it "scary sharp" at that angle and that grit of finish but it is similar to running a 4 minute mile. It will be much easier if you cut the angle down to about 15 degrees with a significant relief bevel. D2 is also tricky because it takes a decent amount of pressure to cut due to the carbide volume, but unless the steel is very hard it will just deform, so very aggressive and clean abrasives work best.

-Cliff
 
The best results that I have with my Queen 4180 is to take the relief down nice and thin, about 15 - 20 deg inclusive (that's total). Be forewarned, it's very easy to take large chunks out of your blade when you go this thin. Don't ask how I know. :eek: :( The relief grind will be around 1/8 to 1/4 inch wide at this angle, at least mine is.

After you've done that, you can take your knife to a DMT red stone (or green), and in 2-3 passes per side, put a more obtuse bevel on it, say 30 deg total or so. With such a thin relief, it takes 20 - 30 seconds to do this, forget about D2 being hard to sharpen.

Pros: Fast and easy to sharpen. Can put an absolute *screaming* edge on it very quickly, and it holds it for a long time. Super cutter.

Cons: Still delicate. Avoid twisting motions or hard impacts.

If that's too extreme for you, put a thicker relief on it. One thing about this technique, all your time is spent on the relief grind, after it's done, sharpening this knife is absolutely trivial, and a joy. As Cliff said, quality abrasive is necessary. As soon as my waterstones arrive from Lee Valley, I'm going to try them.
 
Sodak, if you have the time/inclination it would be useful to keep a record of the minimal profiles you have found for various steels and what was the mode of failure at the given profile.

-Cliff
 
Good point! I've been "kind of" mentally cataloging this in my head, but I'll start recording it. I think it's important to note that on every knife I've done this to, I've ended up damaging the edge with some sort of activity, not just the Queen. Not gross failure, but some impactions, chips, waves, etc. It's bound to happen when you push the steel's limits, so keep that in mind when you want to go thin for ease of cutting or sharpening. Always keep the desired application in the back of your mind.

When this happens, I either adjust the bevel, or my expectations.
 
Well, I took the relief bevel down to 15 degrees with the course diamond stone, then a medium and fine. Sure is a wide bevel, about 1/8".

Definitely had some flex in the guide system. I put a 2x4 in my vise, then layed the Gatco clamp on top of the 2x4. This supported the horizontal (clamping jaws) portion MUCH better (no flex), and you could see the flatter bevel form.

Had to still work on the micro bevel, but now have it much sharper. The ceramic cross sticks made a big difference now.

One thing that was interesting is that at 15 degrees, you hit the tightening screw (both of them) on the Gatco clamp. I hade to grind down the length of the fasterners so as to permit the bottom of the stone to pass without "stoning" them. Seems like they could've put a little more thought into the rig.

Thanks for all the assistance. I'm not shaving with it yet, but I think I can slice a carrot now with flair. Need to work on it more, but I think I'm gaining on it.

One thing is for sure, D2 steel is not like my carbon steel Mora. You really "earn" you edge with D2. Thanks to all once again.
 
I usually reprofile with wet-dry sandpaper or abrasive wheels. If it needs sharpening further, just finish on the sharpmaker.
 
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