Help w/CA knife laws: 2 pts

E

EricO

Joined
Mar 5, 2002
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Could someone pls. expand on their knowledge of open carry of fixed blade knives within the state of CA. I need some further info regarding the definition of "openly suspended at the waistline." I'm particularily interested in whether open carry in this mode mandates no other garment (such as an open, button up shirt, or open light jacket) which may cover (knowingly or not) your fixed blade and sheath. Also, how would a setup be viewed which has a small neck knife sized fixed blade in a horizontally oriented sheath that essentially becomes, "hidden in plain sight"? Does openly carried mandate that there be a plainly visible, vertical sheath with a tucked in shirt so the entire rig is out there for everyone to see?

Also, pt 2. What is the legality regarding small credit card type knives? Such as the ToolLogic/SwissCard/or 1 pc, solid TI anodized credit card sized knives by Crawford and others? They're not folders, unlike the Sypdecard, yet most don't have "stabbing" capability or even, ready accessibility. One part of the Penal Code stated something about not having for sale, importing, possessing, etc, any knife which is capable of being undetectable to magnetometers at their standard setting. Would TI knives fall under this?

Thanks for any info or opinions,
EricO
 
Eric0

There are no definitive answers, but my take on the law is non-concealed carry means just that, no jacket or shirt hiding your fixed blade. Now if you're out in the woods hunting deer I don't think anyones going to care if your knife is under your jacket, but on the city streets its another story.

In response to a previous thread I posted the following info which is relevant to two of your questions:

California Penal Code section 12020 makes it a crime to carry concealed on your person any “dirk or dagger.” A dirk or dagger is defined as “a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death.” Folders and pocketknives are only considered to be a stabbing weapon “if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.” The statute specifically states that “Knives carried in sheaths which are worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer are not concealed within the meaning of this section.”

I did some research and came across two cases dealing with when a knife violates the prohibition against concealed carry.

In the first, a mugger fleeing the crime had some kind of spike stuck inside the waist of his pants. The court found that this qualified as concealed. “The mere fact that some portion of the handle may have been visible makes it no less a concealed weapon. A defendant need not be totally successful in concealing a dirk to be guilty of violation of Penal Code section 12020.” (People v. Fuentes (1976) 64 Cal.App.3d 953)

In the second, a juvenile had in his pocket one of those Swiss army type plastic cards that contain a very small fixed blade, along with tweezers, bottle openers, and other gadgets. The court explained that the law is “aimed at preventing surprise knife attacks by prohibiting the carrying of concealed knives that are particularly suited for stabbing and that are readily accessible to the user.” The court noted that the statute not only exempted folding knives, it also exempted “pocketknives,” which be definition had to mean something other than a folder. Since it took two-hands to take the card knife out of its sheath, and the whole thing was akin to your normal Swiss army knife in its features, the court found that it was a legal concealed pocketknife. (In re Luke W. (2001) 88 Cal.App.4th 650) (The court also rejected the DA’s claim thatif it wasn’t a dirk or dagger it must be switchblade :rolleyes: )

Now you know about as much about concealed carry as I do, and only you can decide what level of concealment your comfortable with.

Best regards,

Argyll
 
Excellent info; always good to keep in mind, though, that the statutes will be interpreted by the LEO you come in contact with or the DA or city attorney in the jurisdiction more or less however they want, and it will cost you thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees to prove them wrong. If you spend most of your time carrying in one or two cities, might not be a bad idea to have a chat with the local LEO of city attorney to clarify their interpretation if you are concerened about a gray area (like the "hide in plain sight" example.

Having a letter or email from the city attorney or DA or Chief of Police clarifying, for example, that they do not consider an open shirt to constitute "concealment" might help if you are later in contact with a LEO from that city. Just my opinion; YMMV.
 
In response: Welcome to the Kommunist Kommonwealth of Kalifornia!

My understanding is that Kalifornia State Government has it's laws and each city is free to enact it's own.

The State of Kalifornia says a common folding pocket knife that is actually folded is legal to carry concealed, regardless of blade length.

Los angeles County/City uses the same format of that law but limits the length of the blade to three inches (as do Federal facilities everywhere).

A letter from the local Chief of Police, Sheriff, or District attorney clarifying the law is impossible to obtain here. They will not stick their political/legal neck out on your behalf.

As a federal law enforcement officer of nearly 34 years, I have been involved in both state and federal cases involving items that are classed as weapons simply because the item "was used as a weapon".

One case involved a bamboo fishing pole that was classified as "a dangerous weapon capable of inflicting death or great bodily injury" because it was used by a 58 year old man to defend himself against a drunken neighbor who attacked him in the driveway of his home with a claw hammer. :eek:

Apparently Kalifornia creats bench-made laws to fit the situation rather that letting the situation dictate which law to apply.

A bit of advise is appropriate in Kalifornia; consider any knife as equal to a firearm in its' use.

If you are in IMMEDIATE danger of death or great bodily harm,
If the antagonist has the INTENT to do it,
If the antagonist has the ABILITY to do it,
If you have NO REASONABLE OPPORTUNITYto escape;
Then you may use ONLY that force necessary to stop his felonious action.

If you are involved in a very BAD situation:
Tell the responding officers,
I was being attacked and in fear of my life. I did what I could to save my life.
I have been severely traumatized and in need of immediate medical attention.
I cannot give any further statement now until I speak to my attorney.
Present your identification.
THEN SHUT UP AND SAY NOTHING MORE, let your attorney speak for you.
(Don't worry, ask for a Public Defender even before you hire a private attorney.)

If you are told you MUST give a statement immediately to aid in the investigation, that's bulls...t. The LA area has probably the best homicide/street crimes investigation unit in the world. They certainly don't need a statement from you to do their job before you consult with an attorney.

If you are told that delaying an immediate statement makes you look guilty and telling the truth will set you free, that is also bulls...t. It makes you look smarter and they will be more careful not to violate your rights.

One final thing; ANYTHING you say to a L.E.O. before you are in custody and read your Miranda rights is admissable in court under the "spontaneous utterance" exception to admissible evidence. Let me repeat my prior statement: "SHUT UP AND SAY NOTHING..." IT MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE!

Feel free to check my profile and/or contact me with questions at lenmattsen@hotmail.com.
God bless one and all.
Len Mattsen
 
I have carried FBs on by belt many times in California, both Moras (4" blade) and a Brusletto (2.5" blade). Basically, look and act like a normal citizen going about your business, and nothing bad will come to you. Anti-knife laws ONLY apply if you are committing a crime, I seriously doubt that you would be hassled for JUST carrying a knife (unless it is into a federal building etc)

But, if you want to play it safe, stick with folders.
 
ivan_yulaev said:
Anti-knife laws ONLY apply if you are committing a crime
Click to expand...

Well yes and no. Sure you are unlikely to have an encounter with the police if you are minding your own business. Just remember carrying a concealed fixed blade that IS a crime, one that is technically a more serious than carrying a concealed loaded handgun, although more likely to be excused.

Best regards,

Argyll
 
The "at the waistline" is not a strict requirement, according to case law IIRC. You can carry a fixed-blade neck knife openly, for instance.
 
A small correction/addition to Len Mattsen's truly excellent post:

In Los Angeles City and Los Angeles County, any one-hand opening, locking, folding knife (Spyderco, etc.) is legal to carry completely concealed, regardless of length. (It must be carried closed, not open.)

Both the City and County of Los Angeles have identical laws prohibiting the open carry of knives with a blade length of 3" or more. This means you can't carry a fixed blade whose blade is 3" or more, openly or concealed (remember, no concealed fixed blades in CA regardless of length). And it means you can't openly carry a folder of 3" or more. There is no clear legal definition in California of what constitutes open vs. concealed carry. A safe method would seem to be: if the cop can see that you have the knife, you're carrying openly.

These two local misdemeanor ordinances that prohibit open carry of knives of 3" or more (LAMC 55.10, LACO 13.62.010-40) have a maximum penalty of 6 months in jail. I would be very surprised if anyone got jail time for violating these ordinances, especially if they had a clean record, but you can never be sure. Most law enforcement officers are not aware of these local laws.

I think the best approach is to carry the concealed folder that you're comfortable with. Don't worry about length, just keep it concealed. Unfortunately, a good percentage of LEOs are not aware of the actual workings of the knife laws. If they find a concealed folder, especially with a long blade length, they immediately think "concealed dirk or dagger." They don't know about the exceptions contained in Penal Code Sections 12020 and 653k.

Another fly in the ointment: City of Los Angeles Municipal Code section 55.01 reads, "No person, except a peace officer shall wear or in any manner carry concealed upon his person, any loaded or unloaded gun, pistol or revolver, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon permitted to be carried by law without having, at the same time, actually in his possession, and upon his person an unexpired permit so to do issued by the Board of Police Commissioners." This means no concealed weapons. But is a folding utility knife a weapon? State law specifically lets you carry your folding knife regardless of length. This law is also quite vague, and sets up a "weapons permit" system that to my knowledge is never used except for CCWs (handguns). I think this local law is really pushing it, and may not withstand a good court challenge. But that means it might be *you* having to hire an attorney to challenge it after being arrested.

Furthermore, the L.A. County District Attorney's office has a policy that they have passed down to law enforcement: arrest anyone who is carrying a weapon on the street. If you tell a police officer that your knife is a weapon, that you are carrying it for protection or "just in case," etc. etc., you may very well be arrested. If your knife is a tool, that's another story. See the distinction?

THE ABOVE IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE! You must research the laws on your own, and/or consult an attorney.
 
Being a knife knut in Los Angeles can be frustrating, if you are concerned, as I am, about obeying the law and staying out of trouble. I want to carry whichever knife I choose, hopefully A BIG ONE. I understand that odds are that I will not be challenged by a LEO, especially since I'm a middle-aged, clean-cut type. But I don't want to risk legal problems, time off work, $$$ legal fees, etc.

My EDC varies, so I generally follow my own interpretation of the local ordinances as described by JohnnyLightOn. I'm relatively comfortable carrying a Spyderco Police or even a Camillus Cuda Maxx, since they're (almost) completely concealed. And I've carried a REKAT Hobbitt's Fang, Spyderco Ronin, Dozier Razorback, and Shivworks Clinch Pick openly on my belt, confident that they're legal, but always a little concerned that a LEO might not agree.

And there's the nagging thought that a fellow urbanite might be aghast at the sight of a sub-three-inch blade right there in public for all to see. I often cover my little blade with my arm or a hat as I go through stores and movie theaters. I must say that only twice in recent years has anyone commented on a fixed blade on my belt. Both times it was men who admired the knife and wistfully admitted that their wives wouldn't approve of such a thing.
 
Lost Jaguar said:
Being a knife knut in Los Angeles can be frustrating, if you are concerned, as I am, about obeying the law and staying out of trouble. I want to carry whichever knife I choose, hopefully A BIG ONE. I understand that odds are that I will not be challenged by a LEO, especially since I'm a middle-aged, clean-cut type. But I don't want to risk legal problems, time off work, $$$ legal fees, etc.
Click to expand...

I hear ya, LJ. Given the freedom I would carry a 4" fixed blade concealed, but I've pretty much resigned myself to folder-only carry. Buck/Mayo for the office, BM 806D2 or Strider SMF otherwise. JohnnyLightOn nailed it as far as LA County is concerned. Stay below the radar and you'll be ok.
 
:confused:

This is as clear as Mud.

I daily carry a 2-7/8" Dozier straight personal fixed blade in a horizontally belt sheath and according to the law this is considered concealed carry since a tee shirt covers it?
 
I carry a Camillus Heat as my EDC, it's just under four inches. I've read all the California knife laws I could find. I know that I'm allowed to carry my folder, even on my college campus because they fail to add any addition restrictions to the already in place california penal codes. I consider myself 'clean shaven' and well dressed, but I'm hispanic and in fairness when you live in a city that has 90% white LEO and most crimes are commited by blacks and hispanics, it's only normal for there to be some racial profiling.

I think I have a greater chance of getting questioned. Not arrested, but definitly questioned. And that in itself worries me. What if I'm questioned by an old timer LEO or an LEO just out the academy who honestly but mistakenly believes that all knives concealed are illegal in public. Even though I probably would be released once I got to the station, it would still be a hassle and frankly an embarissment.

I got an idea to help prevent this. I want to know what everyone else here thinks. I copied and pasted all the major penal codes regarding knives into Microsoft Word. Then I bolded and highlighted specific parts. I printed it out and keep it folded in my wallot. If I'm ever questioned, I may not remember the exact penal code on hand but I believe that I would be able to show the officer the paper and request him to at least verify it with the station on his radio.

Do you think I'm wasting my time or that it could actually help? Here is the document that I typed out: California Knife Laws - Cheat Sheet.doc
 
MSLiechty - I don't think your situation is that unclear. A fixed blade concealed by a t-shirt is illegal. Period.

Vindicated - My bigger concern if I was in your shoes is that the cop would consider the robo-opening feature of the Heat to be a switchblade.

Best regards,

Argyll
 
Vindicated - Good work on your research. Your cheat sheet may help, depending on the officer. Or it may help you with that officer's supervisor at the campus police station. Hopefully you will never need to use it.

MSLiechty - What Argyll said. It's a potential felony to carry your knife this way. If you carried a loaded concealed handgun that was registered to you, but which you didn't have a carry permit for, it would be two misdemeanors. You would be better off carrying a gun than the knife! Your t-shirt, jacket, etc. cannot cover your fixed blade knife if you want to carry it legally.
 
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