Help with a new 8" chef's knife

H

HitIt

Joined
Jan 21, 2011
Messages
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Hey all. I am trying to find a new Chef's knife. I have a Henckels Pro-S 8" chef's knife that I use on a daily basis that I am hoping to replace. I bought this 8" Shun:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NW4830

but ended up not liking the ergonomics. I hate the curve at the top of the blade and I think the cutting edge is too curved. Not fond of the handle and I am also worried about chipping the blade.

I am comfortable with the ergos of the Henckels but I think the blade steel is too soft. I cant get it to hold a decent edge. I am not a master sharpener but I can put a pretty nice edge on a blade with stones or paper wheels. I would like something with some better steel. I am hoping for a do-all knife that can slice tomatoes and cut through chicken bones. I dont mind sharpening periodically and steeling frequently (I would like to get through one complete cooking session though).

Looking to spend under $200 and dont care if it takes a while to get. This will be my personal knife so it will be well taken care of.

Thanks for the help!
 
It's going to be hard to find a knife that is optimized for slicing vegetables that will also cut through chicken bones.

The vast majority of high end kitchen knives will have extremely thin edges that might be damaged by cutting bone.

You might want to look at some of the Victorinox kitchen knives. They are inexpensive and would probably hold up well for your intended use.

The geometry and steel isn't particularly great, but it's a decent knife for the money. ($40 or so)
 
Hecnkels has the Miyabi line of Japanese kitchen knives.
I've had a full set of Henckels for years, and picked up a Miyabi 600 - forged from the Soligen steel, but made in Japan with a modified-western handle. The Ergonomics and blade geometry are simply fantastic.I liked it a lot more than the various Shuns I tried. I lightly strop and steel it between uses (almost daily) and have only brought it to the stones twice in a little over a year. Still shaves hair and slices ultra-thin tomatoes.
But I don't let it get anywhere near chicken bones.

Miyabi do make some others in "better steels" - VG10 and SG2. But I think they're more optimized for taking and retaining an edge (63 Rockwell hardness on the SG2) and may be even less well suited to cutting through bones.
Personally, I'd love to try one of those in the kitchen for soft materials - tomatoes, onions, chicken breast, fish - but use one of the Victorinox kitchen knives or a Becker BK5 for materials which would call for a tougher steel.
 
Mitchell Knives said:
It's going to be hard to find a knife that is optimized for slicing vegetables that will also cut through chicken bones.
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Not looking for a knife that is optimized for any one task. Looking for a good all arounder.

Mitchell Knives said:
The vast majority of high end kitchen knives will have extremely thin edges that might be damaged by cutting bone.

You might want to look at some of the Victorinox kitchen knives. They are inexpensive and would probably hold up well for your intended use.

The geometry and steel isn't particularly great, but it's a decent knife for the money. ($40 or so)
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I cant imagine that this would be a step up from my current Henckels Pro-S. I was just looking for something a bit nicer (and I have the itch to buy something new ;))

I have this on my radar. The #14 Western Deba 210mm. Thoughts?

http://japanesechefsknife.com/FKMSeries.html#FKM
 
I should also add that I like the rounded belly of the Western knives. The Gyuto doesn't do it for me as an all arounder. The Shun belly was just way too rounded for me.
 
Check out the 8" Chef's knife Here:http://www.thebestthings.com/knives/sabatiercarbon.htm

#32120C; Red Stamina handle

I Have its Big Brother, Was not the Sharpest out of the box, but will take a very good edge,

Here's mine above a 10" Dexter

DSC_0029.JPG
 
HitIt said:
Not looking for a knife that is optimized for any one task. Looking for a good all arounder.



I cant imagine that this would be a step up from my current Henckels Pro-S. I was just looking for something a bit nicer (and I have the itch to buy something new ;))

I have this on my radar. The #14 Western Deba 210mm. Thoughts?

http://japanesechefsknife.com/FKMSeries.html#FKM
Click to expand...

Looks like a great knife. I considered that one before I got my Miyabi. (The #13 is actually the 8" version.) But I didn't try it out or anything.
Not sure what Molybdenum Vanadium Stainless Steel is, but at 57-58HRC it's probably just as soft as your Henckels.

I did get a Masamoto HC 120mm Petty from there. I love it - ergos and blades are spot-on, and like a mini version of the Miyabi. But the Carbon steel requires a bit more maintenance, and sharpening, than my Henckels or Miyabi. It sure takes a fantastic edge on the stones. (Came slightly dull, like I was supposed to but my own edge on it.)
They have 210 and 240mm Gyuto's with western handles and stainless steel in their VG and ST series.
I'd give the ST a try, and pick up a Chinese Cleaver for the bones.

Japanese Chef's knives are such a personal choice that there is no "best" one, and you'll have to try a few to get the one that works best for you. But that's really hard to do just from specs, and there aren't many places you can go to try them out.
 
Thanks for the reply. I have never had a knife that isnt stainless but am considering giving it a go with this next purchase.
 
Outside of your price range and about an inch longer, but I figure it's worth mentioning if you're willing to flex:
http://chrisreeve.com/Sikayo

9" blade of S35VN steel at Rc 58-60 for $225(maybe lower if you can pick one up used on the forum).

I bring this up because I figure S35VN is the best "all-rounder" candidate(and is indeed a steel noted for such qualities) as far as steel goes, and a true custom would be well outside of your budget. Of note is that the overall ergonomics seem similar to the Shun knife you're replacing, albeit in a vastly subdued sense(so it's a straighter knife overall). If I were going for a stainless cleaver, S30V would be my steel of choice anyways. Though the chisel ground blade could complicate matters.
 
I might get laughed at for this, but Williams Sonoma has their Wushtof Precision line is on clearance and I bought their 6" chefs for about $45 and its a very quality blade. I dont use it everyday but it gets used once a week and ive been happy with it. I have their Santoku as well. They are getting rid of them but looks like is just rebadging the line as the X line and its not being exclusive to WS. They do carry an 8" model, dont know if still up on their site lately.
 
I am surprised that the SG2 steel is a powdered steel but only has 2% Vanadium. Using conventional smelting, 2% is the maximum amount of Vanadium that can be added to a steel. Using the powder process, you can add up to 12.5% Vanadium. Vanadium carbides Rockwell at 82. The basic blade is in the 60 range. If you can load a blade up with hard carbides (like putting hard stones in cement), you can greatly increase the wear resistance.
I don't know of any kitchen blades that have more than 2% Vanadium, but I would be inclined to make my own knives out of CPM S-90-V or CPM S-110-V which both have 9% Vanadium. The S-110-V also has 3.5% Niobium Carbide which is harder than Vanadium Carbide.
 
tiguy7 said:
I am surprised that the SG2 steel is a powdered steel but only has 2% Vanadium. Using conventional smelting, 2% is the maximum amount of Vanadium that can be added to a steel. Using the powder process, you can add up to 12.5% Vanadium. Vanadium carbides Rockwell at 82. The basic blade is in the 60 range. If you can load a blade up with hard carbides (like putting hard stones in cement), you can greatly increase the wear resistance.
I don't know of any kitchen blades that have more than 2% Vanadium, but I would be inclined to make my own knives out of CPM S-90-V or CPM S-110-V which both have 9% Vanadium. The S-110-V also has 3.5% Niobium Carbide which is harder than Vanadium Carbide.
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I suppose it depends on what kind of experience you have with kitchen knives. I cook a lot - in fact I was recently cast in a cooking show - and despite being a steel snob in pocket knives (S90V, 3V, CTS-XHP, M390, etc.) I'm convinced that one wouldn't, actually, want high vanadium steels in a high performance kitchen knife.

Here's a copypasta I made from a food forum I'm a member of:

"Another issue is carbide size. Vanadium carbides tend to be in the range of 4-6 microns in size, which means that sharpening to grit sizes meeting or exceeding this size can be problematic. There are a lot of hypothesis as to why (e.g. carbide tear out) but these type of steels tend to do best when sharpened to around 15 microns (~1000 JIS). This means that while the edge retention may be through the roof, the type of edge it is retaining is different than what some may be used to.

For very fine edge retention you actually want something with very small carbides. This is one of the reasons that steels like Aogami Super or White #1 remain useful in kitchen knives, because people are frequently after fine edge retention vs overall edge retention. I can put it another way: while CPM-S125V would retain an edge for an extremely long time, it wouldn't retain a superfine (hair whittling fresh of the stones) edge for nearly as long as White #1.

Furthermore, these steels frequently sacrifice toughness for hardness and wear resistance. This means that they may not, in fact, perform well at the comparatively low angles that kitchen knives should be ground to. An often noted downside is that they may chip out at the edge, since their toughness less than a low alloy steel like Aogami Super.

There are a few steels that I think should be interesting to kitchen knife nerds: CTS-XHP, ZDP-189, CPM-M4. CTS-XHP (which I have a few pocket knives in) could do quite well at 61-62 HRC while being very stain resistant and tough. ZDP-189 is already used by a few manufacturers (Konosuke has a ZDP-189 line) but I'm always hesitant to cough up the cash for one since the typical cost (when run at an appropriate hardness of 67+, unlike the MIyabi run a few years back) is around $1,000 per knife. I think that CPM-M4 would be almost an ideal steel for the kitchen, unfortunately the fact that it is an American made steel makes it unlikely that we would see any Japanese makers use it in a knife. I've seen a few kitchen knives made in it by custom makers, but I question their kitchen knife geometry knowledge--most of them make very thick hunting and "tactical" knives that are at the opposite end of the spectrum compared to kitchen knives, so I'm not sure that they would do a good job with the grind."

I don't know if you've ever had the chance to examine a real deal Japanese knife (e.g. usuba, nakiri, or yanagiba) or even one of the more westernized gyutos like a Konosuke, but it's hard to explain just how thin behind the edge these knives can get, and just how important geometry is.
 
Oh, and to answer the OP's question, I'd recommend taking a look at a Hiromoto AS gyuto in the 210 - 240 mm range.
 
I have been using S-30, 60, 90, and 110-V; ZDP-189; TiC carbidized beta Titanium; WC carbidized steel; M-390, CTS-204P; 6B, 6BH, and 6K Stellite; CPM D-2; CPM-154; CeraTitan alloy; BG-42; and several other materials in my kitchen for years. I haven't had any problems with chipping out. The powdered metals have a finer grain structure than the conventionally smelted stuff. One of the more impressive tomato wackers is the the poured Stellite 6B. It forms large dendrites (macro crystals) in the cooling process and performs like a chain saw.
Every time I read a story about chippy super steels, I have to chuckle. My EDC William Henry is hardened to 67 HRC. No chips in 8 years. My S-90-V MADD MAXX at 61 HRC has no chips after 10 years.
I personally do not have much use for non-stainless knives. Most of the high end (priced) stainless kitchen knives seem to be outfitted with VG-10 which doesn't impress me with its edge holding abilities.
 
tiguy7 said:
I have been using S-30, 60, 90, and 110-V; ZDP-189; TiC carbidized beta Titanium; WC carbidized steel; M-390, CTS-204P; 6B, 6BH, and 6K Stellite; CPM D-2; CPM-154; CeraTitan alloy; BG-42; and several other materials in my kitchen for years. I haven't had any problems with chipping out. The powdered metals have a finer grain structure than the conventionally smelted stuff. One of the more impressive tomato wackers is the the poured Stellite 6B. It forms large dendrites (macro crystals) in the cooling process and performs like a chain saw.
Every time I read a story about chippy super steels, I have to chuckle. My EDC William Henry is hardened to 67 HRC. No chips in 8 years. My S-90-V MADD MAXX at 61 HRC has no chips after 10 years.
I personally do not have much use for non-stainless knives. Most of the high end (priced) stainless kitchen knives seem to be outfitted with VG-10 which doesn't impress me with its edge holding abilities.
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VG-10, depending on the maker and heat treat, is often said to have similar edge holding to S30V. Ankerson on the forums confirms that they're both in the same range as far as a working edge.

Where I would agree with you is that while VG-10 seems to take a razor edge quite easily, it doesn't seem to keep it quite as long as AEB-L or other clean carbon steels like White and Super Blue. If you aren't anal about a razor edge, or you don't mind touching up the edge twice a week, then VG-10 is a pretty solid steel, especially in a budget knife. I still prefer it over 12C27 or the nameless German steels(typically run soft as butter). And anything is better than the Chinese "ice hardened" steels.
 
tiguy7 said:
I have been using S-30, 60, 90, and 110-V; ZDP-189; TiC carbidized beta Titanium; WC carbidized steel; M-390, CTS-204P; 6B, 6BH, and 6K Stellite; CPM D-2; CPM-154; CeraTitan alloy; BG-42; and several other materials in my kitchen for years. I haven't had any problems with chipping out. The powdered metals have a finer grain structure than the conventionally smelted stuff. One of the more impressive tomato wackers is the the poured Stellite 6B. It forms large dendrites (macro crystals) in the cooling process and performs like a chain saw.
Every time I read a story about chippy super steels, I have to chuckle. My EDC William Henry is hardened to 67 HRC. No chips in 8 years. My S-90-V MADD MAXX at 61 HRC has no chips after 10 years.
I personally do not have much use for non-stainless knives. Most of the high end (priced) stainless kitchen knives seem to be outfitted with VG-10 which doesn't impress me with its edge holding abilities.
Click to expand...

Not to be a snob - though, actually, I kind of am - but VG-10 is really only used in middle of the road Japanese knives.
 
Cynic2701 said:
Not to be a snob - though, actually, I kind of am - but VG-10 is really only used in middle of the road Japanese knives.
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As well as nearly all of the Spyderco knives out of Japan;), though a good working edge for an EDC knife isn't quite what you may want in a good kitchen knife. I just have some trouble seeing VG-10 as subpar in any way.

But then again, the knives I was used to before my knife hobby were typically cheap Chinese crap, so maybe it doesn't take much to impress me in that regard:D.
 
Noctis3880 said:
As well as nearly all of the Spyderco knives out of Japan;), though a good working edge for an EDC knife isn't quite what you may want in a good kitchen knife. I just have some trouble seeing VG-10 as subpar in any way.

But then again, the knives I was used to before my knife hobby were typically cheap Chinese crap, so maybe it doesn't take much to impress me in that regard:D.
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VG-10 is a good, well rounded steel--which is one of the reasons why Spyderco uses it so much. I've used a fair number of VG-10 Japanese kitchen knives (e.g. Shun, Al Mar, Tojiro, Zhen, Kagayaki) and while yes, they really are quite a step up from the run of the mill Henckels or Wusthof, they are still not quite to the level of a Konosuke, Heiji, Masakage, etc.

A while ago I wouldn't have believed that they really could be much better--but it wasn't until I actually started using them that I could see and feel the difference. Try stringing out scallions after making 15 pounds of mirepoix and then doing a katsuramuki cut without touching your edge up. It will be very sharp - still probably shaving sharp - afterwards, but it won't have retained as much of that "fresh off the stone" edge that something like Aogami Super/Blue #1 or White #1/#2 would.

Yes, high carbide steels will hold an edge longer, but, as you mention, it is a working edge. The really delicate cuts for vegetables in a lot of Japanese and French cooking are much easier to do with that "fresh off the stone" edge; the longer your knife can keep that edge, the better.

Obviously I'm not cutting cardboard, bones, or anything hard with my knife. It's taken to a very very low angle and it's only used against an end grain cutting board.
 
I use a Corian cutting board (MMA Acrylic plastic). It is very uniform, sanitary, and most importantly doesn't contain Silicates like many wooden boards. One of my favorite kitchen knives is a Stellite 6-K paring knife with a 4" X .027" thick full tang blade. It was made by George (Mr. Stellite) Young. I touch up the micro edge by steeling the knife on a Zirconium Carbide ceramic blade.
My beef about the expensive VG-10 kitchen knives is that you're paying $200.00 for a San Mai Damascus blade with a VG-10 center. Skip the sandwich and give me a super steel blade for $200.00. VG-10 has a miniscule amount of Vanadium (0.20%), which forms very hard carbides (82HRC). It is also not a powder steel, so the grain size is larger and the purity is lower.
 
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