Help with finishing on my Edge Pro Apex

[stevelenti]

I'm sure this is a technique problem as I am very new to sharpening but any tips would be a great help.

I'm having a little trouble finishing my edge on most knives. For example, last night I was sharpening my Protech Godson which is 154CM. I was shooting for a 30 degree inclusive bevel. I am using an angle cube to set the initial angle then using a drill stop collar to keep it through the progression on stones. I went through the 220 (apex), 500 (glass shapton), 1000 (glass shapton), 1000 (apex), 6000 (glass shapton, and finishing with a balsa wood strop with 1 micron diamond paste. I made sure I got a burr on both sides on every stone up to the 1000 (apex). I am using a small microscope to check for the burr. The bevel mirrors up nice and it looks great but at the very end I am having issues getting the edge straight. It seems to roll on me thus the edge it not very sharp at the end. I can feel when I drag my thumb across the edge that it is sharper on one side than the other. I try very very light passes with the balsa strop but I always seem to go too far and the edge will roll to the other side. I also tried the ceramic hone but that just made things worse. This issue has popped up more than I would like and its a little frustrating.

I would figure that 154CM and how thin the blade is on the Godson it would take a 30 degree angle. Is that the problem? Should I bump it up or maybe put a microbevel at 40? Any other tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

-Steve

 

[lynus]

I am not an expert but it sounds to me like you need to flatten your stones more frequently or are possibly using too much pressure/not enough patience. Or you are not holding the edge at a consistent angle on the EP while sharpening. Or you are putting a huge burr on the blade and not removing it causing the burr to keep rolling over the edge apex and causing unsatisfactory results. Are you using edge leading or trailing strokes at specific times? Are you attempting to remove the burr at any stage? the Shapton 6000 and strop should be doing a pretty good job of eliminating the burr if you are using them correctly. These were the most common mistakes I made before "figuring it out". These are shots in the dark and more info would be great. Can you post some pictures of your knife edge, stones, setup, etc? May be able to help a little more with more info.

Any idea if your stones are dished? How often do you flatten them? How do you flatten them? Any reason you are using the edge pro stones in conjunction with the shapton stones? Posting some pictures would be cool.

From a micron standpoint I can see where your progression makes sense but Shapton stones are a system and it is usually recommended to stay within that system through your progression. You should still be producing good results with what you are doing though... Any reason you are starting at such low grits before going to the shapton 1000? At what point in your sharpening do you think you are regressing the sharpness of the edge.

1000 shapton to 6000 shapton is sort of a large jump and probably would require patience and control. I can see why you are throwing the EP1000 in between. The longer you have to sharpen on a certain stone the larger probability you are altering the edge in a manner you do not intend through fatigue, impatience, etc.

Microbevels are an additional tool you can use when sharpening. some people do them and some don't. i don't on most of my knives. An example of a plausible reason i have come across for adding a micro bevel is you put a mirror finish on your knife but prefer a less refined edge so you hit the micro bevel at a lower grit. Lately I have been stopping around 4 micron on my knives so this is not a problem for me. Another is the individual sharpening believes it puts a stronger/sharper edge on the knife which also makes sense to me. An example of a bad reason to put a microbevel on an edge is because you cannot get it sharp at your current angle so you increase it in order to hit the edge. If your technique is not good enough on the EP to put a very uniform bevel on a blade you should continue to refine your technique rather than just throw a microbevel on it. My advice would be to get a really sharp edge just doing the bare minimum at first. once you are very proficient at it start experimenting with more advanced techniques.

 

[stevelenti]

I am not an expert but it sounds to me like you need to flatten your stones more frequently or are possibly using too much pressure/not enough patience. Or you are not holding the edge at a consistent angle on the EP while sharpening. Or you are putting a huge burr on the blade and not removing it causing the burr to keep rolling over the edge apex and causing unsatisfactory results. Are you using edge leading or trailing strokes at specific times? Are you attempting to remove the burr at any stage? the Shapton 6000 and strop should be doing a pretty good job of eliminating the burr if you are using them correctly. These were the most common mistakes I made before "figuring it out". These are shots in the dark and more info would be great. Can you post some pictures of your knife edge, stones, setup, etc? May be able to help a little more with more info.

I am attempting to remove the burr between each stone. I check with a microscope for the burr and then after to make sure I am removing it. I can see the burr up to the 1000 EP stone but don't really see anything after very light strokes with the 6k Shapton stone. Patience could always be an issue and I wonder if I'm not spending enough time on the later stones. I made sure there was a burr with the 1k EP stone and I got a great mirrored bevel after all was said and done but the knife wasn't as sharp as it could be and I can definitely feel by dragging my thumb on top of the blade that it is sharper on 1 side than the other.

Any idea if your stones are dished? How often do you flatten them? How do you flatten them? Any reason you are using the edge pro stones in conjunction with the shapton stones? Posting some pictures would be cool.

I actually flattened the stones using the EP stone leveling kit right before attempting to sharpen last night. Just got the shapton stones and they do seem to cut a little better so I was just throwing them into the mix to try them out. If I don't try to redo the edge tonight I will post some pics. It looks great just not sharp.

From a micron standpoint I can see where your progression makes sense but Shapton stones are a system and it is usually recommended to stay within that system through your progression. You should still be producing good results with what you are doing though... Any reason you are starting at such low grits before going to the shapton 1000? At what point in your sharpening do you think you are regressing the sharpness of the edge.

1000 shapton to 6000 shapton is sort of a large jump and probably would require patience and control. I can see why you are throwing the EP1000 in between. The longer you have to sharpen on a certain stone the larger probability you are altering the edge in a manner you do not intend through fatigue, impatience, etc.

The only reason I am using the EP stones is I was too cheap to buy all the Shapton's at once. Mark at Chef Knives to Go recommended the 500, 1k, 6k combo. I realize now I really didn't need to use the 220 but thought I might be saving some time. The 1k to 6k jump really didn't work out so well for me (the patience thing again) so I threw the 1k EP in the mix to make the transition a little easier. I believe I had a pretty good edge up until the 6k stone then the fighting began. I couldn't see a burr but used the same technique to remove one like the previous stones. The went to stropping with the balsa and it would just never straighten out. It feels like I am chasing a burr that I can't see even with the microscope and maybe that's it.

Microbevels are an additional tool you can use when sharpening. some people do them and some don't. i don't on most of my knives. An example of a plausible reason i have come across for adding a micro bevel is you put a mirror finish on your knife but prefer a less refined edge so you hit the micro bevel at a lower grit. Lately I have been stopping around 4 micron on my knives so this is not a problem for me. Another is the individual sharpening believes it puts a stronger/sharper edge on the knife which also makes sense to me. An example of a bad reason to put a microbevel on an edge is because you cannot get it sharp at your current angle so you increase it in order to hit the edge. If your technique is not good enough on the EP to put a very uniform bevel on a blade you should continue to refine your technique rather than just throw a microbevel on it. My advice would be to get a really sharp edge just doing the bare minimum at first. once you are very proficient at it start experimenting with more advanced techniques.

This is good advise. I tend to try and progress faster than I should with things like this without trying to master the basics. I'll probably just go back to using the system the way it came, just the EP stones and polishing tapes to finish.

Thanks for the reply and tips. Throw anything else at me if you think of it.

-Steve

 

[lynus]

The size and type of blade you are sharpening can be very difficult to sharpen with the edge pro. It has a very long drop point. It can be a challenge to keep the knife resting on the EP exactly the same on every pass so your frustration is probably warranted. People have circumvented this problem with 2 strategies. First some people create blanks out of wood blocks for each knife and use that to keep a perfectly consistent resting surface on the EP. Second, there is a small knife attachment out on the web you can buy. Behind the drill stop collar this is my favorite EP addition.

A 15* on each side should be a non issue but it all depends on what you use your knife for. I have always used an extra course 8" x 3" diamond plate to lap my stones. I lap before every sharpening and quite often while sharpening. I really like flat stones. I get the feeling you are attempting to put a scary sharp edge on your knife. This is going to be tough on a guided system like the EP without flat stones at all times and making sure every stroke is hitting the edge the exact same way (patience).

Without pictures and just reading what you are writing it really sounds like you are either not removing the burr and/or not sharpening at a consistent angle. Rolling a burr is a problem at higher grits. I would try doing only edge trailing strokes with your shapton 6000.

Also, you should be able to hear/feel if you are on the edge or not. it really is a huge difference in feel and sound if you are on it or not at higher grits. If you need a helper early on you can throw some sharpy on the edge at any time to see what you are sharpening.

Couple questions if you don't mind. Is your edge different sizes on each side of blade? How long did it take you to sharpen it from resetting the angle through stropping? Can you see any light when putting the back of an EP blank against any of your EP water stones? What are you doing to test the sharpness of your knife?

 

[Sadden]

Rolling or burring? Diamond stropping compounds (even the cheap/poor ones) are very aggressive , and on a hard backing such as balsa will raise a large burr at a rather alarming rate.

On your first stone after you have raised a burr on both side swap to alternating extremely light edge leading strokes
Repeat on your last stone
When you get to your strop make extremely light passes , no more than a handful at a time , and finish with alternating passes using little to no pressure.

 

[stevelenti]

Couple questions if you don't mind. Is your edge different sizes on each side of blade? How long did it take you to sharpen it from resetting the angle through stropping? Can you see any light when putting the back of an EP blank against any of your EP water stones? What are you doing to test the sharpness of your knife?

The edge looks pretty darn even on both sides. I had flattened the stones right before and checked to make sure with the blank just as you asked. It took me about an hour to reach the 30 degree inclusive I was going for with that knife. More inexperience than anything I imagine. I tested sharpness mostly by trying to cut paper. But the big thing is that the blade felt sharper on one side than the other as I dragged my thumb across it. I have a very sharp Sage 2 (S30V) and it feels the same both ways so I knew something was up. After this discussion and going back and forth with Ben at EP I really believe it was a burr that I wasn't getting removed before moving on to stropping.

I ended up going back the the basics and with using only the EP stones and tapes. I made sure I removed the burr completely at the 1000 grit stone by using my mini microscope. I got terrific results. I will add back the balsa strop on my next go around and see if it raises a burr after I'm sure I got it all off before hand.

-Steve

 

[stevelenti]

On your first stone after you have raised a burr on both side swap to alternating extremely light edge leading strokes
Repeat on your last stone
When you get to your strop make extremely light passes , no more than a handful at a time , and finish with alternating passes using little to no pressure.

I did something like this my last go around but will pay more attention when I do another knife this weekend. Thanks for the tips.

-Steve

 

[lynus]

The edge looks pretty darn even on both sides. I had flattened the stones right before and checked to make sure with the blank just as you asked. It took me about an hour to reach the 30 degree inclusive I was going for with that knife. More inexperience than anything I imagine. I tested sharpness mostly by trying to cut paper. But the big thing is that the blade felt sharper on one side than the other as I dragged my thumb across it. I have a very sharp Sage 2 (S30V) and it feels the same both ways so I knew something was up. After this discussion and going back and forth with Ben at EP I really believe it was a burr that I wasn't getting removed before moving on to stropping.

Wow, awesome! My sharpening time varies widely depending on the knife steel. The best method I found to remove the burr is to do edge trailing strokes beginning at the tip of the blade. Cutting paper is a sharpening standard and I think most people including myself do the same. I prefer advertisement paper because it is a little more responsive to displaying uniformity of the edge across to whole knife. The two ways i check for a burr is using light and angling the knife early on. You can easily see the burr at lower grits. Once i can no longer see it I lightly scratch both sides of the edge on my fingernail to see if it catches at all. This was a huge discovery tool for me.

I also figured out that when i was getting really good results only after stropping or using tapes it was because there was still a burr. The stropping and tapes straightened out the burr and made it a paper cutting machine but a pretty poor, short lasting sharpness. You will see the length your edge stays sharp increase dramatically the better you get at removing the burr as much as possible.

I ended up going back the the basics and with using only the EP stones and tapes. I made sure I removed the burr completely at the 1000 grit stone by using my mini microscope. I got terrific results. I will add back the balsa strop on my next go around and see if it raises a burr after I'm sure I got it all off before hand.

I would stop using your EP stones. The shapton ones are so superior it isn't close in my opinion and you already have them. I would also skip using the tapes but I was never fond of them. You have stropping material and a high grit shapton stone so this negates the need for the lower grit tapes.

Keep in mind this is all my opinion only and there are multiple ways to skin a cat. Especially in the sharpening world. Ben has years and years more experience than me especially with his own tool so I would take his advice as probably being the most accurate for obtaining results. I think of the EP Stones as a Kia and the Shapton Stones as a BMW. They are both going to do the same activity with similar outcomes. The experience and quality can be vastly different though.

 

[stevelenti]

Wow, awesome! My sharpening time varies widely depending on the knife steel. The best method I found to remove the burr is to do edge trailing strokes beginning at the tip of the blade. Cutting paper is a sharpening standard and I think most people including myself do the same. I prefer advertisement paper because it is a little more responsive to displaying uniformity of the edge across to whole knife. The two ways i check for a burr is using light and angling the knife early on. You can easily see the burr at lower grits. Once i can no longer see it I lightly scratch both sides of the edge on my fingernail to see if it catches at all. This was a huge discovery tool for me.

I have trouble seeing it after the EP 220 stone but I imagine that will come more with time. The fingernail test seems to work for me the best as well but I have been double checking with the microscope. A little obsessively I might add. I have trouble feeling the burr with my fingernail with the EP 1000 stone but I can still see it with the microscope.

I also figured out that when i was getting really good results only after stropping or using tapes it was because there was still a burr. The stropping and tapes straightened out the burr and made it a paper cutting machine but a pretty poor, short lasting sharpness. You will see the length your edge stays sharp increase dramatically the better you get at removing the burr as much as possible.

This is good info. I will make sure I check carefully to avoid this myself.

I would stop using your EP stones. The shapton ones are so superior it isn't close in my opinion and you already have them. I would also skip using the tapes but I was never fond of them. You have stropping material and a high grit shapton stone so this negates the need for the lower grit tapes.

Keep in mind this is all my opinion only and there are multiple ways to skin a cat. Especially in the sharpening world. Ben has years and years more experience than me especially with his own tool so I would take his advice as probably being the most accurate for obtaining results. I think of the EP Stones as a Kia and the Shapton Stones as a BMW. They are both going to do the same activity with similar outcomes. The experience and quality can be vastly different though.

I agree with you on the Shapton stones. I can see a ton of difference in the cutting power as well the feel of it as I push it accross the blade. I'm ordering the ones I am missing today to complete the set. I don't think I will go as high as the 16k stone though. I have read that is one I can do without in the beginning.

Thanks again for the advice.

-Steve

 

[Sadden]

The other thing that can happen , is that if you have a really small burr leftover after the stones, the EP strops can sometimes have a hard time abrading it away , as its so precise that it just kinda pushes it back and forth a bunch of times.

 

[stevelenti]

The other thing that can happen , is that if you have a really small burr leftover after the stones, the EP strops can sometimes have a hard time abrading it away , as its so precise that it just kinda pushes it back and forth a bunch of times.

Yes, That is exactly what I think was happening. Then the stropping was just flopping the burr back and forth. My second attempt was much better by paying more attention to removing the burr after the final stone.

-Steve

 

[lynus]

I agree with you on the Shapton stones. I can see a ton of difference in the cutting power as well the feel of it as I push it accross the blade. I'm ordering the ones I am missing today to complete the set. I don't think I will go as high as the 16k stone though. I have read that is one I can do without in the beginning.

I agree with not needing the 16k stone. I think you have a base set that is pretty usable as is. The stone that would make your job easier would be something to help the gap between you 1k and 6k. In all honesty I would not buy anything else in your search for getting sharper. You have what you need to do the job. I only use two stones on my EP now and they are the Atoma 400 and Atoma 1200 diamond stones attached to EP blanks. Fast cutting, does what i need on every type of metal, lasts forever, never dishes, no drill stop needed, and puts an incredibly sharp edge on a knife. A little expensive at $75 a piece but probably my favorite sharpening tools at the moment.

 

[stevelenti]

I agree with not needing the 16k stone. I think you have a base set that is pretty usable as is. The stone that would make your job easier would be something to help the gap between you 1k and 6k. In all honesty I would not buy anything else in your search for getting sharper. You have what you need to do the job. I only use two stones on my EP now and they are the Atoma 400 and Atoma 1200 diamond stones attached to EP blanks. Fast cutting, does what i need on every type of metal, lasts forever, never dishes, no drill stop needed, and puts an incredibly sharp edge on a knife. A little expensive at $75 a piece but probably my favorite sharpening tools at the moment.

Yeah, I was definitely thinking about the 4k shapton stone to fill in the gap a little better. Also, the 320 but you are right I probably don't need that one. So, with the Atoma stones do you polish afterwards?

-Steve

 

[lynus]

Yeah, I was definitely thinking about the 4k shapton stone to fill in the gap a little better. Also, the 320 but you are right I probably don't need that one. So, with the Atoma stones do you polish afterwards?

I use a hand held paddle strop after sharpening and depending on what my knife goes through i can strop 2-4 times in between stone sharpening back to a very sharp edge. I do have a bottle of diamond spray i put on the strop but it is used only because i have it. once it is used up i will probably just be using a plane strop or the cheap white or green stropping compound you can buy. The more i sharpen the more i realize the expensive, fancy stuff is nice but not a substitute for sharpening technique and skill.