Help with id of vintage KaBar

M

markymark

Joined
Mar 24, 2006
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310
Can anyone tell me what the model is-the sheath has a boy scout insigna on it don't know if it is the correct sheath or not,any help?Sorry for the bad pics,thanks
mm





 
We're gonna need three things -

1- length of the blade (tip to guard) (to the nearest 1/16th")
2- overall length of the knife (to the nearest 1/16th")
and
3 - is the the snap embossed or plain?.

We start with 9 possible knives.
Based on the handle, we can eliminate 1 of the 9.
Based on the # of rivets on the sheath, assuming the sheath is original to the knife, eliminates another one (it had a 4 rivet sheath).
So were down to 7. Maybe even down to 4 or 5, as the blade looks too long to be 1 of the 3 shorter knives.
 
Well, dingle-berries.

While waiting for answers to my request for more info, I kept digging and comparing the first pics w/ my info, which is not complete by any stretch of the imagination. :(

I thought I had it down to possibly 2 knives based on the sheath stamping. It looks like the ring of words around the first class emblem includes the word "HEADQUARTERS NEW YORK CITY".

According to "600 Boy Scout Knives", which by the way, the author warns is probably not complete, this sheath stamp is rarer that the regular stamp, which is "NATIONAL COUNCIL NEW YORK CITY" and was only associated with 2 of the KABAR line knives. The problem with that is the 2 knives had 3.38" and 4.5" blades. So the first MINOR glitch in the giddy-up - sheath stamp doesn't match published info. But wait, there's more.

Three knives had 5.0" blades - BUT their OALs were 9.25", 8.66" and 9.25". Not a match with yours. Bummer.

There was a 4th 5-incher, but it had a 5.13" blade with an OAL of 9.5".

None match your measurements.

However, the plot thickens - the "2nd" 5.0", with an OAL of 8.66" is listed as the BSA Model 1553.
The ad in your link has the 1554 and 1553. The specs listed in the ad for the 1553 state 5" blade and an OAL of either 9-3/8" or 9-5/8". My screen resolution and eyeball status makes it difficult to determine which. IF it is 9-5/8", that would be approx 9.66".

IF we assume (oohh, I hate doing that :) ) a typo in the book an combine it with the ad info, the 1553 in "600 BSAK" MIGHT really should have an OAL of 9.66" not 8.66". Still doesn't match your knife, but it's in the ball park.

Your knife does NOT appear to be shorter due to re-profiling due a broken tip, so that's not an excuse for it to be THAT short.

Except for OAL, it matches a 1553.

It COULD be a short bladed 1553 (I doubt it - it would never have left the factory over a half inch short).

It COULD be another commercial Kabar model stuck in a BSA sheath - either being one of the many "unofficial" BSA knives, or being a Kabar knife stuck into a BSA sheath from another company's "Official BSA KNIFE" offering. The sheath does match the description of the BSA logo stamp "placement" (high up near the throat), but NOT the stamp that is supposed to be on the 1553 sheath. Well, stamps could be used on any sheath, depending on how harried/lazy the sheath stamper was that day. :D

It could be an OFFICIAL BSA knife that was not encountered by the author of "600 BSAK" and so is undocumented, until someone crawls through ALL past issued of Boy's Life Magazine examining all the ads.

This knife is also an example of why I totally detest "professionally cleaned". All the old (1920s-1930s) BSA knives had the OFFICIAL KNIFE OF THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA wording, along with either the First Class or Tenderfoot badge etched into the blade. When the knives are "polished up" Kentucky mint style, any vestige of the etch is gone forever and you have absolutely no way to identify the knife as a true BSA knife. It may be a knife "like" the official knives, but it can't be proven.

I have several old BSA knives that the etching is so faint, either from use, excessive bad sharpening or corrosion, ANY attempt to "polish it up" would remove the proof that they were BSA knives.

So what do you have??? We don't know. GUNSIL may be able to identify it as to a specific Kabar commercial product, but the actual BSA model designation will remain a mystery for a while.
 
Thank you for all your help,I got it out and measured it again-I guess it is close to 9.25 overall
 
Assuming that it is a BSA model, 9.25" oal 5" blade w/ fancy snap ==> post-WW2 1946 to 1948, the last years that Union Cutlery/Kabar made Official BSA knives (per "600 BSAK"). The BSA model number for these knives is not included in the book, so we'll have to do a little "ad searching" in the Boy's Life Magazines for possible details.
 
Also under the KaBar there is a couple of letters I can't make out,don't know if it is an EO or FO right before U.S. PAT.OFF.
 
As far as I know, KA-BAR only made three models of official BSA knives. The little 3&1/2" blade stainless Little Hunter pattern, the rare Sea Scout rope knife type with wood handles, and the 598-5 pattern which is what we have here. I have no idea where the guy with the 600 BSAK book got his info, I wonder if he noted the different lengths of the 5" blade knives without noting the different pommels. The 598 pattern was available during the war years with the steel pommel which would make a 598 5" blade and steel pommel have a shorter overall length than the 598-5 with the aluminum pommel. Being as Marky's knife has the Reg US Pat Off mark I would say it has to be before 1943 and with the aluminum pommel before 1942, and I believe it was first available in the 1940 BSA catalog. This would give it a fairly close date of 1940-1942 only since they stopped using aluminum pommels in 1942. As to whether it is actually a BSA knife is impossible to tell since it has been heavily cleaned and there is no BSA etch left. I also believe that it is shorter than 5" simply due to the "cleaning". Many knives will vary 1/8" or so either way, but this knife was made at 5" originally. Many many knives have had switched sheaths over the years, and although I believe it is the correct knife for the sheath, it is not a provable fact. As to the sheath and it's marking, I have many and have seen many more with the "NC NYC marks and don't think they are rarer than those with the other marks, but it is possible that since I live in N.Y. state that I find so many with the N.Y. mark. The 1553 model number is a BSA catalog number and not a KA-BAR model number.
 
Thank you gentleman-very good info,I appreciate it,I know you can't talk values to me-but is this one to keep put up or use?
 
Gunsil--

The guy who wrote the 600 BSA Knives book got his information from official BSA catalogs, Boy's Life Magazine ads, knives he had in his possession and knives/info given to him by other folks.

He lists 2 OLCUTS and 8 KABAR knives as the Union Cutlery "Official Boy Scout Knife" versions.

600 BSAK 1.jpg

600 BSAK 2.jpg

As you can see, there are 3 "blade categories" - 3"+, 4"+ and 5"/5"+ I could see minor blade length variations due to manufacturing differences, but a whole .25 difference in the 4"+ category seems excessive for a manufacturer? And then there is the OAL differences w/ the same blade lengths. Pommel style could explain the differences, but unfortunately the author did not include any pictures of the individual knives he was inadequately describing. Much more info on the sheaths that the knives. Even the knife info is cryptic - nowhere in the book is his code for the handle disc order descriptions explained - guard to pommel?? pommel to guard?? I can assume that B/R/B means black red black but "j", "ddb" or "cde"??? Unexplained.

ETA - not letting me add pics :(

ETA2: had to enter in info 1 paragraph at a time and the pics one at a time :(:(:(
 
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Wow! Thanks Zzyzzogeton and gunsil. There's a lot of information there and I appreciate y'all taking the time to share with us. :thumbup:
 
I think the guy who did that book was "smoking in the shower". He doesn't mention any official BSA etch on the Olcuts, it sounds like these are knives found in BSA sheaths and not from old catalogs or magazines. Ditto on the one with a retailer's etch along with the BSA etch, this would not show in a catalog or magazine picture. This would also explain why he has so many different length knives with odd measurements listed. He is using found examples, not actual catalog descriptions and some of his found examples are not official BSA knives (the Olcuts), and some have odd lengths due to cleaning or modification. Another proof of the lack of reliability in his book is the fact that the Olcut brand was phased out before 1937, the date he gives for Union Cut's first BSA knife.
Markymark, I would call your example a good user, most collectors want to see the official etch remaining to call it a BSA knife.
 
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