Help with ID

[Pittstate03]

I purchased this with a lot of other items in where I typically buy old guns, civil war, frontier items, and other antiques. Just would like to see if anyone could tell me anything about it.
I know the handle looks like it was cut just to have something to stick in the head, which looks to be modern.

Thank You

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ibb.co

89126-E34-3727-471-C-83-AF-0-E8819-AE96-C2 hosted at ImgBB

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DAC5-D15-F-74-A8-440-C-8363-45-D443599840 hosted at ImgBB

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9734-DE58-636-A-4453-8073-EFB0-A3-EA78-A0 hosted at ImgBB

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ibb.co

 

[Square_peg]

Looks old. It has an inserted forge welded bit. Where did you find it?

 

[Pittstate03]

I got it at the Tulsa gun show in a bundle with a Colt single action, some other antique guns, some Native American items, and some civil war items.

 

[garry3]

It would be wrought iron if it had some age to it and I'm not sure from the pictures. A blacksmith in your area might be able to tell you. Wrought doesn't necessarily mean it's old but a soft steel means it's for sure modern.

 

[jake pogg]

It has a Blade forge-welded into the strap that forms the socket,i.e. it's not clear if it's a bit of an actually hardenAble steel,or just more mild.

The edge has never been ground in any way...Is that because the tool is incomplete,or was meant for some other chore than cutting wood? (if it's a grub hoe type implement it still does not appear to've ever been used).

The variants of different chores for which it may've been created for are many and sundry,anything from breaking skins in tanning to some other fiber-breaking chore.

Something like this could easily have come from a recent experiment in someone's backyard forge, (i could probably find a number of very similar artefacts around mine),or as a possibility it may've been imported from some third-world country,as an unfinished or discarded item.

The hafting appears to've been artificially aged, at least it looks like some light-colored wood that's been painted.

Afraid that my money is on it being an article of decor,not necessarily a deliberate fake to deceive but a romanticised item so to speak...

 

[I'mSoSharp]

To me it looks a lot like some of the old axe heads I see for sale here (southern Spain), but Jake has a good point about the edge looking suspect.
Some clearer images would help.

 

[jake pogg]

P.S. An interesting detail of this is the poll. Not too many of the world's axe-making cultures have practiced such poll shapes. It was used at times (not sure if a term "common" would be exact) in parts of Central and North-Eastern Europe; then continuing up the Baltic coast to the area inhabited by Finno-Ugric language groups actually becoming common,a NW portion of what today is thought of as "Russia",roughly between Karelia and the Ural range.

No unified typology really exists, but often axes with similar poll are called "Baltic". Those drawn-down (and up) sharp corners of the poll were even added at times as a special feature-something definitely done on this example,you can see the weld-seams.

In their detailed study of that very particular detail,based on some actual Scandinavian artefacts, Jim Austin/Jeff Pringle team have concluded that this detail was most commonly added by just such a method as it appears was used in this case- a "staple"-weld. They used a Germanic term "helmdach" to describe such poll,not sure if this term is theirs or some other researcher's,or an actual traditional designation.

I've actually been looking at just such polls very recently,having been sent a PDF on similar axes (except these were mostly one-piece polls):

oops...dunno how to tack on a PDF file,sorry...

 

[jake pogg]

Here's an example of that type of poll (please disregard all references to "viking" or "battle" or similar entirely unwarranted and unscientific malarkey;the artefact appears to be quite real,and very possibly predates viking Age):

finno-ugric axes - Bing

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And below is a more stark example of a defined "helmsdach".Possibly applied as a separate detail it's still based in the above principle just isolated from the rest of poll by either fullering or welding:

finno-ugric axes - Bing

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www.bing.com

 

[Pittstate03]

Here is a attempt at some better pictures. Thank you all very much for your input.

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Image F56-D6525-A778-41-FE-99-D4-46-E50-A0-F60-AC hosted in ImgBB

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61-E8-D8-DC-38-D0-4192-B3-DD-E0312462-AA0-E

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44-B21-A19-1-ADC-41-D8-A873-AF5-F5-CDFD78-C

Image 44-B21-A19-1-ADC-41-D8-A873-AF5-F5-CDFD78-C hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

 

[jake pogg]

Here is a attempt at some better pictures.

Thank you,these are some really decent quality photos,can't ask for much better.

It does appear that the edge was never formed on this,by grinding or whatever other means,the forge scale is uniform all over.

That forge scale and the topography of the surface itself speaks of it being some very non-modern kind of steel,any of the gazillion kinds of "WI" or even an entirely homemade bloomery material (would be Very difficult to get that beautiful and rich of a texture with any modern alloy).

An incomplete,rough forging from long ago? An experiment by a modern-day amateur like myself? Pretty hard to tell.

If some very old material was used the only way would be some very expensive analysis (they can do that nowadays,tell when was the last time steel alloy had reached forging temperature,a method so costly most museums can't afford it ).

 

[I'mSoSharp]

An incomplete,rough forging from long ago? An experiment by a modern-day amateur like myself? Pretty hard to tell.

It's a strange one & the edge looks as though it's rolled a bit through impacts indicating soft steel, maybe discarded because of that?..... what looks like two equally spaced moon shaped indentations in the left hand cheek are weird as well...

It does appear that the edge was never formed on this,by grinding or whatever other means,the forge scale is uniform all over.

Are we definitely looking at forge scale or is it rust pitting after a clean up ?

 

[jake pogg]

Are we definitely looking at forge scale or is it rust pitting ?

Even the best photos on a screen of course give only a certain degree of certainty.

But,being myself a proponent of dirty old alloys (the older and dirtier the better) i'd say that the glazed-looking areas are melted Si, the longer fissures are Si-filled seams that were forged vertically, and the pitting is quite consistent with as-forged on the hot side look...(quite similar to rust except happens Much faster).

Rolled/damaged skinny sections are also very typical for a fresh forging. Manipulating a very hot and soft forging in solid fuel amongst the bricks surrounding the firepot does that a lot (my fire-shape is determined by loosely placed bricks also,and any slender section gets easily damaged when trying to settle the forging in the coals so as to leave least air-spaces underneath et c.).

 

[jake pogg]

Silica is a most valuable ally and friend to black metallurgy. In the more primitive bloomery process it comes from all sides-out of poorly cleaned ore,from charcoal where it's content is usually quite high, from the masonry walls of the furnace itself.
In the gradual process of it's making the bloom sits in a deep puddle of Si,and is very thickly coated and bathed in it. Si has a very low melting point and if it wasn't for it the iron bloom would burn away and/or pick up so much Carbon into itself as to become cast iron, defeating the entire purpose of the process.
At some point the breast of the furnace is breached and the molten Si slag drains away,it's fluidity and color et c. a very important indicator telling the operator much about how the melt is going...

Later age when iron was refined by "puddling" it was done in a large brick vat completely filled with Si,again to protect iron from excess C and O uptake.

Even if/when the iron was eventually "(re-)fined" and turned into some object it was still lousy with All kinds of Si inclusions in the form of sheet layers or strands or amorphous globs (depending on how it was refined),and it too had a very important duty to perform: Si is a mineral and does not corrode.
Even in salt water,why WI was specified as the proper material for anchor chain long after it's use elsewhere has gone away.
In that wet rainy England that molten Si covering large areas of exterior architectural ironwork was also super instrumental in making all them gates and grills last...
In combination with oxide scale,which is also a mineral,and non-metallic,and very much corrosion-resistant....The kind that clings to iron tightly,not the "loose scale".
Both are somewhat porous (especially the Fe2O4 or whatever that scale may be),and with an addition of some greasy substance (like that bacon rind of a Victorian-Age butler) could last a Very long time in even some pretty hostile environments,certain air or soil or water conditions.

So i think that's what we're looking at in these photos,a typical older alloy forged hot and left as is....(long ago people knew the value of saving themselves time and trouble-why scrub something that would only develop more and harder to clean deposits afterwards?).

 

[Square_peg]

Si is a mineral and does not corrode.
Even in salt water,why WI was specified as the proper material for anchor chain long after it's use elsewhere has gone away.

That statement reminded of a stop I made last weekend at Port Ludlow. I saw this huge WI anchor and chain. It made me stop and think about how difficult it would have been to forge such a large object before the advent of electricity and combustion engines. Clever breed those old chaps.

Apologies to the OP for going off topic.

 

[catspa]

SP, did you approach Port Ludlow from the west or the east? (Drawn no doubt by the magnetic properties of that bigass anchor.)

Parker

 

[Square_peg]

From the west this time, on land.

 

[Square_peg]

oops...dunno how to tack on a PDF file,sorry

Email it to me. I’ll host it and post it.

 

[Square_peg]

No unified typology really exists, but often axes with similar poll are called "Baltic". Those drawn-down (and up) sharp corners of the poll were even added at times as a special feature-something definitely done on this example,you can see the weld-seams

The elongated poll would prevent the eye from rocking on the haft, creating wear and loosening the head. It compensates somewhat for the otherwise short eye.

 

[jake pogg]

The elongated poll would prevent the eye from rocking on the haft, creating wear and loosening the head. It compensates somewhat for the otherwise short eye.

Yes,very much so,the most important bearing side of any eye is the poll-side.

In forging a pre-form for such axe some special stock accumulation/shaping is called for,so it stands to reason that sometimes that extra bit of mass was added in a separate process.

 

[catspa]

From the west this time, on land.

That’s my usual approach also, except more often I bypass it and cross the bridge on my way to points beyond.

Parker