Help with my first Tanto Attempt

[Tatsubon]

Hi to all BladeSmiths,

I have been lurking and enjoying the many beautiful custom blades shown in this forums. Picking out inspirations and ideas as to what I want to make for myself. Basically a fun knife I can use for camping out in the woods. Use for hacking at branches, split kindling, or sharpening a stick for cooking smokies. A work horse of a blade that can take some abuse and not cry.

This has lead me to make my first Tanto out of 1/4 thick D2. (12" OL, 7" BL)

I plan to find some micarta or hardwood scales to put on it after heat treating it, but haven't decided what kind of RC hardness is appropriate for a utility knife of this type. I have read that D2 is capable of achieving 62 RC, but don't think that it is practical to be so hard and brittle.
I was thinking about asking for a edge hardness of 56-58 RC and a spine and tang section of 50 RC so that it won't be prone to shock and shattering. (Are my specs too soft for these areas?) Can I bring back the temper of the spine myself with a torch? What are the procedures if there was any?

The shop I inquired about heat treating my blade has not had any experience on selective tempering and I was shocked by the minimum prices charged! ($80!) If I had brought 5 blades that would have been still the same price. Wished I had more to HT. Anyway I did not feel confident and walked out with my knife and will be looking at another shop and see how I feel about their experience with blades.

If anyone has suggestions about what RC hardness is decent for a utility knife please chime in. I'll be eager to learn more about this subject.

Cheers,

- T

PS - I'll try to post some pics once I figure out how to.

 

[sunshadow]

fill out your profile

welcome

first things first

I think this will answer most of your questions



Have you seen this ?

The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers v11

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, or you may have a helpful neighbour; but that depends on where you are.
Fill out your profile with your location (Country and State at least), age, education, employment.

Have you seen this ?

The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers v11

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, or you may have a helpful neighbour; but that depends on where you are.
Fill out your profile with your location (Country and State at least), age, education, employment.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms

Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E.Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-Website



Books

A list of books and videos on the KnifeDogs Forum
http://www.knifedogs.com/showthread.php?t=5285

BladeForums - E-books or Google books
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:
On the Google books thread, you can find
Lloyd Harding drawings
and
the Loveless book with large variety of proven classic styles.
Google books thread


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

Machine Shop Tools-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable PDF


The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

The goop quench is total Bull, commercial quench oils are available, even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginners book.

The home built grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is now a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days and you will understand it much better.
http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

The best video on leather sheath making I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 new videos, his sheath work is fantastic. I hope the videos are too)

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
They are slow to get new titles and wait times are measured in months,
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.

Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
You can also find it on YouTube broken into 4 parts.

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
If you send out for heat treating, you can use O1, A2, D2, CM154, ATS34, s30v, 440C, plus many others.

If you heat treat yourself, find some 1070, 1080, 1084,
1084 FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated just for knifemaking.

You can find a list of suppliers here
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Aldo is highly rated.
http://njsteelbaron.com/


Heat Treating
You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

This PDF brochure gives a good overview
http://www.buckknives.com/resources/pdf/Paul_Bos_Brochure.pdf

http://www.petersheattreat.com/
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/about_us.php
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Grinder / Tools

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig .
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00921513000P?prdNo=3

Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinders
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466024


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone
Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
Free plans
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html


Safety Equipment

Respirators



The minimum I would consider are the 3M and North silicone half masks;
even better are the powered positive pressure fresh air systems.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788837
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726309

Courtesy of the Count

I would go for about a 58 hardness and not worry at all about softening the spine unless you are planning on doing something stupid like batoning it with a hammer
-Page

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Welcome to the BF.

There are many problems with your parameters as stated.
Filling out your profile will be a good start to getting this project on track.

A few of the issues:

The blade would never need to be 1/4" thick.

When you say "Tanto" what size and shape are you talking. ( posting a sketch will help).

In D-2 there is no good reason to have a differential hardness, and several where it isn't wise.

There are many HT sources that do one blade for about $10.

Post some details and a sketch, and let us see what you want to make. Filling out your profile may let a maker know that you live near him...and get you some help and maybe a free HT.

 

[Tatsubon]

Thanks for reminding me to fill out my profile.

Truth be told, I had done numerous searches and already read most of the FAQ sections posted by sunshadow.
Not much was ever mentioned about specific zonal RC hardness.
I was even hoping to find out what specs SOG, Kershaw, and even CS were using for some of their fixed blades. Has anyone dare test their factory blades. I do know that RC testers leave a small indent where the ball applies pressure on the steel.

Stacy - Your instructions sections was one of the most combed through while I was lurking down here. I have to find a image hosting site and will be posting some conceptual sketches and the actual blade achieved.

As to why I chose a piece of 1/4 D2. It was what was available to me at the moment.
My source at Bolher Uddeholm could only had it in hot rolled sheets 0.285" thick.
As I was making the knife I enjoyed the weight and balance.

Having access to a machine shop did not deter me from using my coffee breaks to quickly cut some of the simple profiles. Almost all were straight lines any way.
Fun part was in my garage with the file and stones working the bevels.

I have to head out the door for club practice. (Archery League)
Will get back later this evening and try to post some pics.

Thanks for reading and chirping in.
I do value all your comments.

Regards,

- T

 

[Tatsubon]

Well here are some pics of what I am up to.
58 RC for my bush wacking Tanto.
As I said I would be using it as an outdoors man blade.
Clearing saplings and splitting kindling with a wooden baton

BTW I'm not in that pic, but that's the environment where this blade with some weight would come in handy.

As of now I am just doing some polishing around some of the rads. I read that some deep scratches will be a darn thing to remove once hardened.
I'm hoping to find some nice stabilized wood scales from this outfit next week.
http://www.veddermountainhardwoods.com/

Thanks for looking!

- T

My Original Idea

What it turned out to become.

 

[AcridSaint]

Hacking branches and splitting wood would not be first on my list of things to do with a D2 knife. I think A2 would be a better choice, not that I'm necessarily a fan of it.

I don't know how I would have ever started making knives if I hadn't filled out my profile.

 

[Tatsubon]

AcridSaint,

I was in such a rush to post my question that I neglected to fill out my profile.
It interesting to hear that people would dig around to find out more about your experience before replying. Kind of makes sense.

I'll take a closer look at A2 for my next project blade. A Kukri Machete for some serious bushwacking strength. In hindsight, can see that the Tanto would not stand up very well to slashing due to the short reach of the blade. In truth I see it more of a combat knife (bears if I ever did have to use it, wouldn't believe how many I come across while trail riding) Maybe it would be better to take every ones suggestions and not try to destroy this blade by using it for the wrong purpose.
I'll change my bevel angles to something more useful. Right now I had it setup for around 40 degrees. I'm thinking 30 should do quite well for a decent cutting edge?

All in all it was a fun project and I had learned a lot about what blade smithing is all about.

- T

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Looks like a nice and servicable knife. The HT should be for toughness over hardness, with a 58Rc target. Cryo would be benificial.

The blade shape is "American Tanto", BTW. An actual tanto blade has a kissaki that curves up to the tip from the yotote, not angular like the American version. Most true tanto look more like a fillet knife or a boner.

A machete or similar shape knife would be a better choice for clearing brush. And you can't get more durable or utilitarian than the Smachette.

 

[Tatsubon]

Bladsmth,

I'll try to keep it tough at 58 RC and skip the zonal tempering.
Truth be told I did play around at one point at the early stage shaping a kissaki but did not quite like the overall look of the blade. The angular length of the blade did not blend the curve well enough.

I have 2 machetes already and find their design not too easy to carry while riding and they do not slash very well IMO.
Smachette has now got me curious as a cat. I'll do a search and try a sketch or two.


- T