help with stock removal, clay temper, water quench, hamon...

[manghu67]

im totally new to knifemaking, and have been reading the hell out of these forums to try and get a clue... im not sure if i have one yet or not... let me know if the following is correct...

for stock removal blades (id rather start with those and then move on to forging):

1) cut out the patern with a bandsaw, and start grinding, rough grits for hogging off metal, fine ones for finishing...

2) when finished grinding, coat entire blade including the handle with a clay wash, build up the clay pattern to 1/8 inch near the spine (including the handle?) leaving the spine uncoated...

3) into the furnace it goes for the heat treat until it goes to dark cherry red and reaches non-magnetic...

4) immediately plunge edge into room temperature (about 70-80 degrees) water for 3-5 seconds, repeat, then let air cool to room temp overnight...

5) into the oven at 400 degrees for the draw (not sure how long, 4 hours?)... let air cool overnight...

6) repeat numbers 3-5 two more times...

7) remove clay with water, dry... buff blade with a scotchbrite pad, then etch with something (muriatic acid? is it buff and etch or etch and buff?)...

8) sharpen on a belt sander at low speed making sure the blade never gets too hot to touch so you dont screw up the temper...

9) assemble the handle (micarta, g10, or a japanese wrap)...

10) make the sheath, either kydex or leather...

11) DONE!!!

is this correct?

now for the questions:

1) what steels are good for the water quench method, and which produce the most lively hamon? i was thinking w2, but i had heard thats not available anymore... i dont know if this is true or not...

2) i know micarta produces formaldehyde fumes when ground or sanded and thus i would need a respirator if working with it... aside from the particles, if ground on a belt sander at lower speeds, does it still produce toxic fumes? what about g10?

3) how fine should the finish be prior to the heat treating process?

4) when do i polish? wont polishing after the etching erase the hamon?

5) do i need to draw the stock in the oven prior to grinding? how about after grinding but prior to the heat treat?

6) am i missing anything else?



thanks!

the d

 

[rlinger]

I'll contribute this much:

Do not coat the edge with clay. The edge will not properly quench if you do that. (I think you had edge and spine switched when you wrote your post.)

Do not allow the blade to set over night before tempering at least once. When the blade reaches approx., but no less than, 125 F place it in PREHEATED tempering oven IMMEDIATELY and let temper no less than 1 hour for carbon steel. Your 400 F temperature for tempering is right on the mark. It is not necssary to temper more than 2 hours per.

You need only temper twice. You may temper the second time at the same temperature as the first or you may drop the second temper temperature about 25 degrees F below the first temper. For most simple carbon steels that we use I recommend 400 F for the primary temper and 375 F for the second, final, temper. Allow the blade to cool to room temperature between temper sessions.

RL

 

[Don Hanson III]

Boy, you are fired up aren't you
W2,W1, 1095, 1084, 1080, 1075, 01, they are all good.
Quench in warm oil, water is like asking for trouble.
like rlinger said, coat spine with clay not edge.
120 to 220 grit before heat treat.
Leave egde alittle thick(.050) before heat treat then finish grind after.
Breathe no dust.
Polish before etch.
Maybe someone else will step in and answer some more

Don Hanson sunfishforge.com

 

[mete]

1075 or 1080 would be appropriate. If you hold at nonmagnetic for about 5 minutes you'll only have to do it once. The purpose of the clay is to retard the quench ,you want a slower cool on the spine so it will be softer and tougher.Therefore coat the spine with clay. The edge is uncoated to get a hard edge.The clay can be played with to get an interesting hamon, just don't make the edge of the clay straight.

 

[R APPLEBY]

1. cut out pattern, grind to 220, leave edge thickness about.060

2. nomalizse the blade to dull red 2 times

3. clean the blade, remove any scale with 220 grit, remove any grease, dirt and finger prints.

4. clay coat the blade including the spine at least 3/8ths inch thick, let dry completly, this may take several days(also paint on a very thin layer of clay on the area that you have left the edge exsposed.)

5. heat to full red(non-magnetic)

6. quench in a saturated salt water brine( if you can't find rock salt now solor salt will work all the same, costs about $3.50 for a 50lb bag) temp 80-100 degress. leave the blade in the water until the action stops. quenching edge down may cause blade curviture so if you what to reduce the curve, quench spine first. most of the clay should have been blown off in the quench.

7. if you are making japanese style blade heat treat is finished thought you can temper 2 X for 1 hour at 300 to relax any stress other wise 2 X for 1 hour at 400.

8. finish grinding with 220 then 400, the best hamon will appear if you hand finish using finer papers(buffing will blur the temper line), I hand finish to 1500 working in a sharp edge as I hand rub.

9. etch the blade with ferric cloride (about a 10% mix or apple cider vinager)
repeat as many times as required to get the desired result. wash in baking soda solution, hand polish with fine polising compund use lots of water. clean, dry, wax blade as the has an open grain and is suseptible to rusting also etching from finger prints.

10. build the handle.

11. sheath.

10xx series steel works best in water the lower the carbon content the stronger the hamon will appear. L-6 makes a great temper line but needs to be oil quenched.

 

[Protactical]

There are those who put a wash coat over everything, and there are also some who put thinner or none on the spine in order to have some I beam effect. I think what exactly you do has to be considered against the knife type, steel type, and use.

On page 87 of the Craft of the Japanese Sword, they show the craftman covering the edge of the sword with clay "first". But then he is using a coal fire. If you were using a redusing flame in a propane forge, without quite the same concern for burning your steel, then you would one bother?

Also, you don't want heat it up till it's demagnetized then quench it, at least with the steels I use, I hold it a minute past demag, then quench.

The best thing, is rather than trying to come up with a perfect list, just work out what needs to be don on the specific project you are entertaining.

 

[manghu67]

Boy, you are fired up aren't you

Don Hanson sunfishforge.com

you bet your ass i am!!!

i got an isbell tanto in april, and that just sort of cemented the idea in my mind... ive just been trying to gather info and tooling since then... i got tired of sitting on the fence, so now im just going to do it... i should be ready to roll with this in the next couple months... i just need furnace plans and a really good belt sander...

thanks for the info, guys!!!

any more suggestions???