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Help with translation from German.

Roman is a member of this forum too. You may want to contact him directly?

He surely will be glad to help you further.
 
lukaszki said:
You can eventually trie the Babelfish? I could help a little bit
Click to expand...

Worst case senario that would help. Only allow's you to translate 150 words at a time. Have you tried the European Community here? They may be able to assist you as well :confused:
 
hi,
I have a question: do you need a quick translation in few words or scientific complicated translation? Do not be dissapointed after the translation.

Actually, I didn't find any new facts about steel or knifemaking in it after cursory reading. just a good compilation of well-known facts.

Of course, my german is not so good (as well as english). But I'am working in a scientific german company for 2 years and have some experience in this topik.
 
I don't want to sound too negative, but I'm not sure how realistic it is to get a translation here. That's an 18-page text (granted, with pictures) with specialized vocabulary, and translating it will take more than an hour or so. My mother is a freelance translator for technical manuals, and during semester breaks I have sometimes earned some extra money by helping out and taking on some of her simpler jobs. Not sure what the industry standard is for translation fees, but my last 50-pager took several days, and paid for a nice custom folder.

Kristofer
 
Well, I don't think it is really worth translating. There are a couple of good points which I will summarize below, but which are also an old hat to most people on this forum. But the text is also written in a very "textbook like" style which I personally find very obnoxious and poorly supported by the content, which would be lost in the translation.

The points are (and I don't necessarily agree with all of them):

1.) There are very few truly objective test methods available to the ELU. Truely objective testing of the properies of an edge, such as edge retention, cutting ablility etc. requires equipement that is not affordable by an ELU (I presume he is talking about a CATRA, even though he doesn't mention it). He demisses hemp cutting test.
2.) The properties of the material and the blade geometry have to be carefully matched to the intended use. E.g. pull cuts are optimized with a coarse grained steel, or a heat treat which increases grain size. Same with hardness. However, he mainly focusses on cutting ability and points out that the blade should be as thin an as hard as the application will allow. It is interesting that he classifies ATS-34 as coarse grained and doesn't rank it very high in ultimate pushcutting ability.
3.) The only ELU available blade test that he recommends is the "flex test" in which the edge is placed onto a brass or steel rod of 2-6 mm in diameter at an angle of 20-30 deg (works only for edges <40 deg obviously) and pushing down on the blade. If the edge breaks out and chips the edge is too brittle, if it permanently deforms, it is too hard. It should "buckle" and then jump back with out permanent deformation. He does not specify with what kind of pressure this test is to be conducted. He points out that even this is just a very rough test. (On a personal side note: No traditional Usuba Hocho, with white or blue paper steel hardned to 64 Rc would pass this test, so the edge would be deemed "to brittle for practical use"....I guess the japanese chefs beg to differ).
4.) Visual indication of a poor blade: a) Discoloration from overheating during grinding. b) chips in the blade. c) Flextest. d) High edge bevel indicating thin blade with small angle (not quite correct...only on a thick blade it would be an indication of high angle). e) Thin edge bevel.
5.) Asking the sales clerk or manufacturer whether the knife was sharpened on a dry belt or on a wheel with constant water cooling.
6.) He points out that in a standard knife about 70% of the the performance potential is sacrificed to compensate for ELU mis-use and to increase the flexiblility of the design (ok for many applications, optimized for none).

Anybody: Please correct me or add to this if I have left out important information or have misrepresented this article (Blob?). And please forgive my editorial remarks, I hope I have marked them clearly as such.

My personal summary: An interesting article which would be very helpful to anybody, who starts to get interested in knives and doesn't want to hang out on forums like this, but written waaaaay too technical to ever attract such an audience.
 
Thanks HoB,

This is what I think I really need. I was advised to read it, but have no clue in German myself.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
HoB said:
The only ELU available blade test that he recommends is the "flex test" ...
Click to expand...

That is one of the least controlled and highly subjective tests, and any steel can pass or fail it depending on how you grind the edge, how much force you apply, the angle, size of rod, and so on.

All blades have some elastic region, it is just really narrow on some blades. I did this with an ATS-34 blade a couple of years or so ago when someone brought it up, and passed it then failed it both ways with the same blade.

The author has a research background so it is most likely written in a style suitable for journal publication which is usually over written and very formal.

-Cliff
 
Ok.. I have to fess up! My brother in law works at Area 51. The Aliens are now bargaining with our Government for a new Supersteel that can withstand 10,000 degrees. It will remain razor sharp forever so, throw all those expensive DMT,s out! The steel will hack & chop through anything: steel,brick,concrete,bone,tree knots etc.. It will do this forever & not need to ever be sharpened! In the meantime until the agreement is settled go get a MORA Knife! :D :eek: :D
 
Cliff Stamp said:
That is one of the least controlled and highly subjective tests, and any steel can pass or fail it depending on how you grind the edge, how much force you apply, the angle, size of rod, and so on.
Click to expand...

As I said, wasn't necessarily in agreement with the author of that article...I fear it showed through in my summary in from of the editorial comments. I have been in research for 9 years now, and quite frankly, whenever I read an article like that I start to bristle a bit. It is one think to keep the language as precise and detached (and dead) as possible in a peer-reviewed research article. To use the same language in an introduction to the general public is a failure on part of the author and just helps the general bad rep that we "research types" have.
 
HoB said:
To use the same language in an introduction to the general public is a failure on part of the author ...
Click to expand...

Is it stated somewhere that this is the intended audience?

-Cliff
 
So a few words about the article,

target was give a basic idea for the community to outline some easy things that can be figured out to determine aspects of quality of a blade. So this was a basic overview with several hints to my book where you have a in depth base to dig into.

The way it was done is structure in the basic areas one should look at whenn searchin for quality.

These areas are
Cutting qualities e.g. cuttingability, edgholding ability, Quality of the cut, potential analysis.
Quality of the material
Heattreatment
Userbehavior
Siple test and ideas to detect quality

In total just basic thought and basic hinds to get people a bit closer to the issues of quality around blades.
The Flextest indeed i promote for easy tests in that way but not for scientific works. All works and tests have been documentet in the book and in my graduate thesis.

Regarding the tests. I have been talking to Verhoeven several times an he explained this cutting test of some american company (CATRA). Test like this have been inventet in Germany in the lat 20th to the mid 30th and found new refinement in the early 50th till today. (The language gap is just a pitty, isnt it?)
So these tests have been running for quiet a while here and i guess in Sheffild and Japan to I have a Wall of folders At home that are filled.
So to get to the point I did not use the Flextest for my scientific work your right this isnt acurrate, bit in a basic way a interested user can get a basic idea wether he has a usable blad in his hands or junk.

E.g. pull cuts are optimized with a coarse grained steel, .
Click to expand...

Coarse grained means large carbides

or a heat treat which increases grain size
Click to expand...

I dont remember saying so.

I dont remember saying this
(On a personal side note: No traditional Usuba Hocho, with white or blue paper steel hardned to 64 Rc would pass this test, so the edge would be deemed "to brittle for practical use"....I guess the japanese chefs beg to differ).
Click to expand...

Mine do so, cause I make them myself all the way
 
Here it is:

Sashimi_Hocho_2.JPG


Thanks, Vassili
 
HoB said:
Well, I don't think it is really worth translating. There are a couple of good points which I will summarize below, but which are also an old hat to most people on this forum. But the text is also written in a very "textbook like" style which I personally find very obnoxious and poorly supported by the content, which would be lost in the translation.

The points are (and I don't necessarily agree with all of them):
...

3.) The only ELU available blade test that he recommends is the "flex test" in which the edge is placed onto a brass or steel rod of 2-6 mm in diameter at an angle of 20-30 deg (works only for edges <40 deg obviously) and pushing down on the blade. If the edge breaks out and chips the edge is too brittle, if it permanently deforms, it is too hard. It should "buckle" and then jump back with out permanent deformation. He does not specify with what kind of pressure this test is to be conducted. He points out that even this is just a very rough test. (On a personal side note: No traditional Usuba Hocho, with white or blue paper steel hardned to 64 Rc would pass this test, so the edge would be deemed "to brittle for practical use"....I guess the japanese chefs beg to differ)...
Click to expand...

I believe if the edge permanently deforms it is too soft, not too hard.
 
Roman Landes said:
Quote:
or a heat treat which increases grain size




I dont remember saying so.
Click to expand...

Yeah, he doesn't say that in his article. Actually he claims the opposite.
 
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