HEMA Feder

S

SteveGallo

Joined
Apr 29, 2014
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Apologies if this information is posted elsewhere - I searched but didn't turn anything up, and can't find much info anywhere else.

I've recently joined a HEMA club for longsword fencing. I'm a fairly experienced smith, though I generally only work in cutlery. I'm going to try my hand at a feder, which looks like this:

http://www.wildgeesefencing.com/mal...federschwert-meister-20?category=federschwert

10.jpg


I don't want to mess with trying to keep this straight. I can find dimensions, so I'm just going to order the closest fit from NJ Steel Baron and go the stock removal route. I'm looking for advice on a few points:

1) This is a heavy use item to be taken to ~48-50 HRC. I can't find specific steel choices from vendors, and I can't process stainless. I'm thinking plain 1084 would be a fine choice, but open to any suggestions.

2) Info I can find says these go to 48-50 HRC, and this is where I'm stumped. Obviously I can't fit a 48" sword into my home oven, so I don't know how I'm going to temper it. Might need to send it out for HT, unless anyone has other thoughts.

Thanks,
 
Another thought I had -

If I could just buy stock at ~48 Rc, would it be all that difficult to do removal at that hardness? Thinking I could potentially skip the HT altogether.
 
I don't know what kind of advice to offer you here, but I wish you luck either way.

If you're planning to forge it, go with what you know. But if you're looking for a different steel, I'd always prefer an alloy known for impact toughness. 5160 would be a solid choice, and it's fairly cheap, and fairly easy to find- maybe even from a local leaf spring manufacturer.

I made my training blunt out of aluminum, since that's what other members of our fencing club were already using. And I can tell you, stock removal of that much material took forever. I really wouldn't want to try doing it with spring steel!

That brings up another point- What is everybody else using at your HEMA club? You probably want to match theirs reasonably close.

Personally, I think it would be cheaper in the long run to buy a feder, rather than making one. If money is tight, use your shop time to make something you're already good at, then sell it to put the funds towards fencing gear. The only reason I made my own training blunt is because I wanted it to feel more like my real sword.

munich%20amp%20trainer_zps0clfhvlz.jpg
 
The only advice I have to offer is to check if the group will allow an unknown sword. If the HT or other things aren't right, "safe" swords can break and hurt someone. I know fencing clubs will NOT allow a sword made by anyone but a certified supplier or known expert.
 
I am currently finishing the first of two stock removal swords.
I sent mine to Peters for HT and it came back straight and at the specified hardness.
I made mine from CPM 3V at 60 hardness and expect it to be pretty tough...
 
S7 or 4142. 4142 already comes at 40ish rc and compared to the steels were used to it grinds like butter.

Peter's will do air hardening up to 60" I believe
 
john april said:
hello, you may get an answer if you post this in the sword discussion section.
Click to expand...

Sorry about that! Wasn't paying attention I guess. Thanks for the direction.

the possum said:
I don't know what kind of advice to offer you here, but I wish you luck either way.

If you're planning to forge it, go with what you know. But if you're looking for a different steel, I'd always prefer an alloy known for impact toughness. 5160 would be a solid choice, and it's fairly cheap, and fairly easy to find- maybe even from a local leaf spring manufacturer.

I made my training blunt out of aluminum, since that's what other members of our fencing club were already using. And I can tell you, stock removal of that much material took forever. I really wouldn't want to try doing it with spring steel!

That brings up another point- What is everybody else using at your HEMA club? You probably want to match theirs reasonably close.

Personally, I think it would be cheaper in the long run to buy a feder, rather than making one. If money is tight, use your shop time to make something you're already good at, then sell it to put the funds towards fencing gear. The only reason I made my own training blunt is because I wanted it to feel more like my real sword.

munich%20amp%20trainer_zps0clfhvlz.jpg
Click to expand...

I'm not looking to forge it. Unlike your blunt, these feders don't even have a bevel. I think I can cut it to shape, clean it up, and call it good. I've spoken to the club owner, and he's fine with me using my own product. Good advice on buying, but I sort of want to try my hand at the process at least once. Worst case, I can always buy one down the road. Most of the club members use the "standard" Regenyei feder:

Standard%20feder_sampl.jpg


I think the stock removal wouldn't be as bad for this, as I'd buy the thickness very close to the finished product. Seems more like I'd just be cutting the outline. I could be dead wrong though.

Thank you for the info.
 
If you have a 2x72" grinder with ceramic belts it should profile a blade in any condition quickly and without a problem. I am by no means a steel guru but if I have understood the threads over the last few months you will have a much tougher blade going with a lower carbon steel than using something like 1080 and tempering it back. Some good alloys have been mentioned that are alloyed for toughness will be better off. I know some foils are using maraging steel and are considered safer than others. If you want to go that route it might be pretty complicated though.

Let us know how it comes out. HEMA is a sport that I would love to get into.
 
Why not just cut it out with a bandsaw/portaband-with-table and then clean it up on the grinder? It'll leave you with a whole lot less metal dust in your shop and potentially some useable cutoffs.
 
MBB said:
Why not just cut it out with a bandsaw/portaband-with-table and then clean it up on the grinder? It'll leave you with a whole lot less metal dust in your shop and potentially some useable cutoffs.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I had in mind. If I can find an appropriate steel already at the desired hardness and thickness, I should be able to just punch out the shape, clean it up, fit a guard, hot peen the pommel, and call it a day right?

skillgannon said:
If you have a 2x72" grinder with ceramic belts it should profile a blade in any condition quickly and without a problem. I am by no means a steel guru but if I have understood the threads over the last few months you will have a much tougher blade going with a lower carbon steel than using something like 1080 and tempering it back. Some good alloys have been mentioned that are alloyed for toughness will be better off. I know some foils are using maraging steel and are considered safer than others. If you want to go that route it might be pretty complicated though.

Let us know how it comes out. HEMA is a sport that I would love to get into.
Click to expand...

I have seen that a lot of the higher end blades use maraging steel, but it's insanely expensive and difficult to HT. I don't think it's necessary for a big old feder either.
 
That is what I was getting at earlier. It only takes one, "I didn't think that it was necessary for a big old feder," moment to cause a severe injury. The fact that you aren't sure is enough reason to either do more research or change the plan.

IIRC (it's been a long time) maraging steel is required for all fencing foil/sword in any sanctioned competition. Non-compliant weapons are not even allowed on the floor, just to prevent a possible mix-up and accident.

For those not familiar with maraging steels, they are a very low carbon (almost none), high alloy steel that is age hardened to make it VERY strong/tough .... and nearly unbreakable. It isn't all that hard, but you would have to do something extraordinary to break a piece.
The alloying is high in nickel, cobalt, and molybdenum, plus smaller amounts of several other elements. Nickel is the main thing and is just shy of 20%. Total alloy content is 30-40%. In some maraging steels, they add lots of chromium to make it stainless. In other alloys, the nickel is replaced with a lot of manganese. It is all the alloying, as well as the HT process that makes it expensive.
The steel is annealed to form a particular type of martensite (lath?), and then held near 1000F for many hours. This causes the alloying to precipitate out (precipitation hardening) and makes the steel really strong (but not much harder). It does not take/hold and edge, but the weapons made from it are edgeless ... so that is a good thing.
 
SteveGallo said:
This is exactly what I had in mind. If I can find an appropriate steel already at the desired hardness and thickness, I should be able to just punch out the shape, clean it up, fit a guard, hot peen the pommel, and call it a day right?
Click to expand...

Maybe you should experiment prior to actually making something to engage others with? You don't want to make something that inadvertently breaks and hurts someone.

In terms of your plan, it'll be very hard to bandsaw cut anything near your desired hardness, so fully annealed is probably a better option. For a simple carbon steel, 5160 will probably be easier to heat treat than 1084 while being equally or potentially more tough. After that, you can make a temporary heat treating oven by stacking soft fire bricks and adding a few small burners. Add a temperature probe and you're good to go. I have done similar on a large 1/4" thick 5160 machete and it hardened appropriately.

I'm not endorsing any of this, though, as Stacy clearly knows best.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
That is what I was getting at earlier. It only takes one, "I didn't think that it was necessary for a big old feder," moment to cause a severe injury. The fact that you aren't sure is enough reason to either do more research or change the plan.

IIRC (it's been a long time) maraging steel is required for all fencing foil/sword in any sanctioned competition. Non-compliant weapons are not even allowed on the floor, just to prevent a possible mix-up and accident.

For those not familiar with maraging steels, they are a very low carbon (almost none), high alloy steel that is age hardened to make it VERY strong/tough .... and nearly unbreakable. It isn't all that hard, but you would have to do something extraordinary to break a piece.
The alloying is high in nickel, cobalt, and molybdenum, plus smaller amounts of several other elements. Nickel is the main thing and is just shy of 20%. Total alloy content is 30-40%. In some maraging steels, they add lots of chromium to make it stainless. In other alloys, the nickel is replaced with a lot of manganese. It is all the alloying, as well as the HT process that makes it expensive.
The steel is annealed to form a particular type of martensite (lath?), and then held near 1000F for many hours. This causes the alloying to precipitate out (precipitation hardening) and makes the steel really strong (but not much harder). It does not take/hold and edge, but the weapons made from it are edgeless ... so that is a good thing.
Click to expand...

I do know that the common tournament feders are not made of maraging steel. Not many disclose their composition, but I know most are stainless steels. The vast majority of tournament feders are in the $300-$600 range, which definitely prohibits maraging steel. So, I am confident that maraging steel is not necessary for a safe feder. Likewise, I do know the desired Rc and dimensions for a common feder.

In other words, I know the product, I'm just trying to determine the process that works for me. I do appreciate the safety advice though.

MBB said:
Maybe you should experiment prior to actually making something to engage others with? You don't want to make something that inadvertently breaks and hurts someone.

In terms of your plan, it'll be very hard to bandsaw cut anything near your desired hardness, so fully annealed is probably a better option. For a simple carbon steel, 5160 will probably be easier to heat treat than 1084 while being equally or potentially more tough. After that, you can make a temporary heat treating oven by stacking soft fire bricks and adding a few small burners. Add a temperature probe and you're good to go. I have done similar on a large 1/4" thick 5160 machete and it hardened appropriately.

I'm not endorsing any of this, though, as Stacy clearly knows best.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the info, this is the insight I was looking for. If that's the case, then I will buy stock fully annealed, cut it, and probably send it off to Peter's for HT. I am looking at either 5160 or 80CRV2 for the steel choice.

Thanks,
 
For any organized competitions there should be a rule book that outlines exactly what is allowed with the equipment.
 
AVigil said:
For any organized competitions there should be a rule book that outlines exactly what is allowed with the equipment.
Click to expand...

Indeed you are correct, for most they just outline accepted brands/banned brands, with the caveat that if you show up with a non-standard feder, it will be inspected prior to competition. Rules do vary though.

Being that I'm not looking to compete anytime soon, I'm confident I can pull off a safe, inexpensive, quality practice feder.

Thank you for all the advice and information. I'll update as soon as I move forward!
 
My last caveat would be - When you are done, hand it to the main instructor and have him heavily use it on practice dummies and wooden arms to check it out.
 
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