Here is one for the electro-geeks .

K

Kevin the grey

Joined
Aug 26, 2005
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E:M:P:s . Mother Natures way of saying : Don,t fool with Mother Nature . :

Whyfor don,t they affect human bio-circuitry . Sure they might be made of flesh and bone so to speak .

Don,t they have equivalent functions in the human body ?

Why don,t our bodies do the funky chicken when we get pulsed ?
 
Kevin the grey said:
E:M:P:s . Mother Natures way of saying : Don,t fool with Mother Nature . :

Whyfor don,t they affect human bio-circuitry . Sure they might be made of flesh and bone so to speak .

Don,t they have equivalent functions in the human body ?

Why don,t our bodies do the funky chicken when we get pulsed ?
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Humans are effectively non-magnetic. It's why magnets don't stick to you, and--I think more importantly--why you don't suddenly fly up and stick to your refrigerator.

In a sufficiently massive magnetic field--way beyond anything produced here on earth to date--it would be possible to levitate a person. We can already produce strong fields that can levitate a poor little froggy.
 
Watchful I have stuck to my fridge on more than one occasion . Of course there was beer in it at the time . L:O:L

While we have low residual magenetism do we not have two poles ? (No I,m not bragging . L:O:L )

So E:M:P: only disrupts things with magnetic fields ? I thought they were more generally disruptive as far as circuitry is concerned . My bad . I musta been sleeping that day .
 
Watchful said:
In a sufficiently massive magnetic field--way beyond anything produced here on earth to date--it would be possible to levitate a person.
Click to expand...

Actually, we have. I remember seeing it once on this documentary... I think it was called X-Men, or Y-Men, or something like that. There was this guy they called "Magneto"....

:D
 
Magnetic fields across conductors cause voltage and current. That's how a generator works, in fact: spinning a coil of conducting wire between a few magnets.

The primary damage from an EMP would be to microcircuits, like computer CPUs and RAM, or the various integrated circuits in everything from the TV remote to medical equipment.

Because of their size, these circuits are extremely delicate. Even that spaceheater Pentium 4 in your Dell has a lot of circuitry to keep the juice from the power supply power from frying anything. Electronics repairmen even have to be careful of static electricity; while the current is low, the voltage in that little spark is enough to toast an IC.

So, the danger from EMP is that it can generate uncontrolled currents inside of ICs that are powerful enough to burn out the microscopic circuitry, sort of like that little static electric spark. Beefier circuits like electric motors, building wiring, etc. wouldn't be affected.

As for the human body, it isn't so delicate that an EMP would damage anything. An EMP would generate tiny amounts of current inside our bodies, but they'd be so small we'd never notice them.

We've all gotten a shock from shuffling our feet on carpet; if our bodies were wired like an IC, that would be fatal!
 
We've all gotten a shock from shuffling our feet on carpet; if our bodies were wired like an IC, that would be fatal!
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Whenever that happens to me I turn right and I smell burnt toast . L:O:ÉL
 
Kevin the grey said:
Whenever that happens to me I turn right and I smell burnt toast . L:O:ÉL
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Having read your posts, I can't say I'm surprised that you're wired a little funny. ;)
 
Another reason that EMP doesn't affect humans much is that we are more sensive to alternating or multiple pulse types of signals over a relativly narrow range(it is how tazers and stunguns work.) than we are to DC signals. Hardly anyone would ever be electrocuted if our electrical systems were DC instead of AC, and vastly fewer people would be electrocuted if we used 50Hz or 400Hz systems like europe or the military.
Enjoy!
 
Happy Joe said:
Another reason that EMP doesn't affect humans much is that we are more sensive to alternating or multiple pulse types of signals over a relativly narrow range(it is how tazers and stunguns work.) than we are to DC signals. Hardly anyone would ever be electrocuted if our electrical systems were DC instead of AC, and vastly fewer people would be electrocuted if we used 50Hz or 400Hz systems like europe or the military.
Enjoy!
Click to expand...

Please provide a basis for these claims. DC power is extremely dangerous. You can seriously burn yourself on a AAA battery if you hold a bare copper wire against both terminals without gloves or other insulation on the wire. At commercial DC voltages, you can kill yourself instantly. Having been present for a DC arc by a sleepy electrician (he's okay), the result was explosively powerful.

Additionally, the frequency of the electrical distribution system has nothing to do with safety, but with generation standards. You advocate that DC is safer than AC, and that 50Hz would be even safer still over 60Hz... except that there are no 50Hz DC systems anywhere in existence... because all oscillating electrical systems are indeed AC. There *is* no Hz rating for DC systems because it's a continuous supply and return. A 40Hz (I assume you meant 40, rather than 400), a 50Hz, and a 60Hz distribution system are equally dangerous since the human body responds to voltage amount and amperage intensity, not frequency of power.

Incidentally, since Tasers and stun guns work off batteries, those are DC-based systems.
 
We use AC because we can trasmit it more efficiently then DC.

Also a tazer may have DC batteries, but it can't increase the voltage (at the expense of amperage) unless it's AC or at the very least interupted DC.

Also when you shuffle you feet and generate a static spark, what actually happens is you get very rapidly switching -+ arc until the charges equalize.

People get slid into MRI machines with high magteic fields everyday without electrical damage (to the people).
 
in answer to your request, Watchful;
http://www.bassengineering.com/E_Effect.htm
- a page by a consulting engineer. you can google more evidence youself.
additionally you might look up some of the fights that went on when Edison was trying to get the country to adopt a DC system and Tesla was proposing an AC system.

The ignorant can make anything dangerous(you gave a good example) (any one shorting batteries on purpose should probably be kept away from pointy and blunt objects).

At high voltages (and currents) both AC and DC can be dangerous to those not equipped with the knowlege to use them safely. Even those that do know some times are injured and killed (investigate Arcflash).

"except that there are no 50Hz DC systems anywhere in existence... because all oscillating electrical systems are indeed AC. There *is* no Hz rating for DC systems because it's a continuous supply and return. A 40Hz (I assume you meant 40, rather than 400), a 50Hz, and a 60Hz distribution system are equally dangerous since the human body responds to voltage amount and amperage intensity, not frequency of power."

Please take the time to learn some basic electricity/electronics.
I meant 50 Hz AC, however a square wave is an pulsed DC wave form (you can make a crude one by switching a battery on and off 50 times a second)and so you can have a 50 Hz DC current.
I said 400Hz and I meant 400Hz; FYI, this is the AC frequency that much of our military runs on and has for a very long time.

Amperage is the most dangerous part of electricity DC or AC; however, the frequency can induce irregular heart beat (fibulation) that can kill you at a lower current than you can stand with DC (apprrox 1/10) .
I do grant, however, that there is probably not much (although I'll bet that is measurable) differance in the death rate from 50 hz versus 60 hz shocks.

Enjoy!
 
I have had a number 22 wire dance along my wrist when installing a phone . 70 volts D:C: . I would rather have had 110 volts A:C: . It was entirely unpleasant and burned as opposed to shocked .

D:C: will also make you clench and freeze up more than A:C: . 110 volts D:C: or A:C: ? You would be much less likely to disengage from the D:C: source .

B:T:W: We short maintenance-free 12 volt batteries with a screwdriver to test them all the time . Shorting a triple A battery would not make a fly flatus even if you could get it to explode . There is a limit and there is a way .

I am just a lowly electrician . I am also fairly certain pulsative D:C: is not an alternating current . You must alternate from a positive to a negative for that .
Current flow is still in one direction only . Is not a hertz a complete alternation from the positive to the negative ?
 
@ Happy Joe,

So why do you make the still-unsubstantiated claim that 50Hz is safer than 60 Hz?

Your citation, while an introductory and useful read on electrical safety, mentions that--and I quote--"Humans and animals are most susceptible to frequencies at 50 to 60 hertz." There's no mention in the article about one being safer than the other except for a roundabout reference that the heart responds better at 60 Hz. At least, that's the theory behind AEDs. It isn't the frequency that's deadly, but rather how the frequency interrupts the signal of healthy--or failing--heart.

I readily admit I missed the words "the military" on the 400 Hz claim (I mistakenly thought you were referring to a 400 Hz claim for international usage... although you would have a point since this is used for maritime and aviation as well).

Also, your claim that DC is safer than AC is, for me, invalid--although I have a theory.

It seems, with your example of a rapidly switched DC current, you have a background in electronics.

My experience is in large-scale electrical distribution, although this is not my primary resposibility.

As you probably know, those two worlds rarely agree on anything, although they use the same currency of volts and amps. What may be true at microvoltages is obviously and understandably quite different from large scale voltages with which I'm familiar.

@ Kevin the Grey--

I agree. Switching a DC current on an off merely creates a square wave with a voltage of 0 to +1 (or 0 to -1). A true AC current sweeps from +1 to -1, with 0 at the midpoint. AC current needs inversion.

But my background is not in electronics, so there may be non-inversion tricks Happy Joe knows that I'm not remotely aware of. I'm not aware of any shipping product that does this, but that means nothing--there could be millions and I would never know.
 
I have worked for an Electrical-mechanical engineer/architect smart enough to make millions who did not have simple practical problem solving skills .

I have been surrounded by a crowd of rich business men , real estate developers , contractors and the same Architect in his multi million dollar state of the art gun range . For years they were stymied by a series of roof water leaks . We went for a tour of the roof , inspected the mezzanine where the leaks were the most evident and settled in the entranceway to jabber on about how the contractor wouldn,t be paid in full for his work as he couldn,t fix/find the leak .

Long story short ? I interupted them all and told them there leak would be fixed in two days and for twenty dollars . I pointed out to them that all the evidence showed one possible problem .

They hemmed and hawed and said it was not likely , impossible and a whole bunch of big words signifying nothing . Two days later a three year long problem was fixed . Sometimes practical knowledge weighs more than book smarts .
 
While on the roof I noticed supports for a huge skylight that was never installed . They just flashed over the supports and tarred them up when they tarred and stoned the roof. Everything looked like a million bucks .

When we went down into the entranceway I looked up past the mezzanine to the ceiling and noticed the water stains resembled the pattern of the supports except for one stain which was twenty feet to the side .
The smart architect said the stain to the side proved I was wrong . I merely pointed out the ceilings internal structure was put there to service the building and not to give true indications of water leaks . His partner interupted us and said he didn,t think I was right but for twenty bucks he was willing to take the chance . A tub of tar , an hours work and I had a job with the partner with a substantial raise and incredible working conditions .

The partner was a common man . A carpenter who saved his money , bought buildings and ended up owning a good chunk of the top of the decarie expressway . This includes the Erricson building and a host of others .

The smart architect was a social tyrant . During construction he even made an electrical contractor sit in the corner like a child . The only thing he respected was someone who could compete with him . Through his wife he gave me several gifts albeit in a grudging manner . Perhaps to hide his embarassment .
 
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