Hey folks. Shopping help please.

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Jan 23, 2021
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59
Hi everyone. I'm at my wits end and Google is no ones friend.

I'd like to buy steel flat stock in these dimensions for a stock removal project.

48 inch x 1.75(or 2) x .5(or.75) inches for a project of mine. Its an art sword.

Where can I find good hamon producing steel in the above dimensions? 1080, 1095,

Good ol easy heat treat stuff.

Thanks so much

Tony
 
Hi Stacy. Thanks! Hey i read in the other thread that all came out well you the wifey. Congrats! What a terrible shock!

Anyhoo, I need it thick because, well I'm afraid i'm going to screw up!!! I have donestock removal with a grinder in a loooog time.

I was taking kendo lessons from someone a long time back and he had a non-sharp, but otherwise beautiful blade that we would use to siulate live blade dueling. Had a huge nearly full length fuller which seemed to really lend to the stiffness of the blade. Had to have been at least .375 along the spine. So i figure a half should do the trick to allow me some fudge room.

This is going to be my gift to him as he is 90.

It will pass to his grandson.

I had a question as to durability and edge retention. Which of the 2 will be sharper and hold and edge better, all things being equal? Which of the 2 is more wear resistant? I guess I'm asking which of these will be the best for live blade, cutting, real beater kind of use?

Second questiion is a bit more complicated. I can heat treat blades, but tempering them at almost 40 inches including the tabg,,,,, thats not gonna fit in my oven. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Tony
 
You should start the project when you are confident in your grinding, rather than having a piece that is far too thick. What if the grind goes well?
You won't be able to comfortably hold such a heavy piece.
 
You should start the project when you are confident in your grinding, rather than having a piece that is far too thick. What if the grind goes well?
You won't be able to comfortably hold such a heavy piece.


I'm gonna clamp it down and use a hand grinder.

Can you give me suggestions on how to temper a long object like this?
 
Have someone else heat treat it for you in their big oven.
 
https://www.jarodtodd.com/

He's up in WA, but does a bang up job!
Don't know if he's equipped to do really big stuff or not...

I'm not local to AZ, so I really can't say anything about who/what is around...
 
You said this was a ken-do type sword, so I assume you are talking Japanese martial arts. Nothing I have seen needs the dimensions you describe unless it was being milled from a solid bar. .375" at the spine (mune) sounds really thick? I don't know the exact sword you want, but I would have picked a bar 36" long, 1.0" wide, and .375" thick to forge a full size blade from. You would likely want 48X2.5X.250 for cutting out the profile and doing stock removal (very wasteful method). Another FYI is they are rarely over 40" long. A photo of your project goal would help.

I'm going to be the spoiler here. It sounds like you have not made a big sword (Japanese or other), and may not have much knifemaking experience or equipment.

A .5X1.75X48 inch bar of steel weighs 12 pounds. .75" would make it 18 pounds.
A full size samurai sword sword goes a couple pounds (3 pounds is heavy). They are rarely over .250" thick at the shinogi. If you want to use it for ken-do, it would need to be in that range. (more later about that)
I can't see any reason to go past .375" stock, with .250" being a good choice if you are doing stock removal.

Grinding a sword with a hand grinder (angle grinder?) will not be pretty. It can be done, but it will take some time and skill. Fullering a long sword also takes some practice. After the basic grinding, you will need a lot of hand filing (draw filing) and maybe 100's of hours of hand sanding to finish a sword like you describe.

You say you need a hamon steel? Doing yaki-ire isn't what most HTers do. It is a difficult skill, and a long sword is not the place to start. A smith with the equipment and experience may charge several hundred dollars just to harden it. Then the togi to finish the blade and bring out the hamon is a second skill set that takes years to master. A togishi may want $2000-3000 to polish out a 40" blade. You can do it yourself, but it take some practice and skill.
Any steel that will take a hamon will make a very sharp edge. That isn't the issue here.

Then there is the koshirae. Will there be a proper tsuka, a saya, fittings? Do you have the skill to make these? Do you have the money to buy them?

Finally - You could make the most beautiful sword anyone ever saw and the old gent and his grandson may love the look ... but it can never be used in any practice or competition. Swords for these uses must be made by someone experienced (and usually certified) for such use. They can cut all the tatami they want at home, but if they take it to a dojo they will be told to take it back to the car.

All the above are concerns for something that will cost a hundreds of dollars in materials - plus HT - plus polishing - plus koshirae - etc. and possibly months in time.

Sometimes it is best to honestly ask yourself if you are ready for such a project. A wise man will listen to his answer. A fool will ignore it.
 
Stacy is absolutely right (and I'm the king of ill-conceived labor-intensive projects...).
 
You said this was a ken-do type sword, so I assume you are talking Japanese martial arts. Nothing I have seen needs the dimensions you describe unless it was being milled from a solid bar. .375" at the spine (mune) sounds really thick? I don't know the exact sword you want, but I would have picked a bar 36" long, 1.0" wide, and .375" thick to forge a full size blade from. You would likely want 48X2.5X.250 for cutting out the profile and doing stock removal (very wasteful method). Another FYI is they are rarely over 40" long. A photo of your project goal would help.

I'm going to be the spoiler here. It sounds like you have not made a big sword (Japanese or other), and may not have much knifemaking experience or equipment.

A .5X1.75X48 inch bar of steel weighs 12 pounds. .75" would make it 18 pounds.
A full size samurai sword sword goes a couple pounds (3 pounds is heavy). They are rarely over .250" thick at the shinogi. If you want to use it for ken-do, it would need to be in that range. (more later about that)
I can't see any reason to go past .375" stock, with .250" being a good choice if you are doing stock removal.

Grinding a sword with a hand grinder (angle grinder?) will not be pretty. It can be done, but it will take some time and skill. Fullering a long sword also takes some practice. After the basic grinding, you will need a lot of hand filing (draw filing) and maybe 100's of hours of hand sanding to finish a sword like you describe.

You say you need a hamon steel? Doing yaki-ire isn't what most HTers do. It is a difficult skill, and a long sword is not the place to start. A smith with the equipment and experience may charge several hundred dollars just to harden it. Then the togi to finish the blade and bring out the hamon is a second skill set that takes years to master. A togishi may want $2000-3000 to polish out a 40" blade. You can do it yourself, but it take some practice and skill.
Any steel that will take a hamon will make a very sharp edge. That isn't the issue here.

Then there is the koshirae. Will there be a proper tsuka, a saya, fittings? Do you have the skill to make these? Do you have the money to buy them?

Finally - You could make the most beautiful sword anyone ever saw and the old gent and his grandson may love the look ... but it can never be used in any practice or competition. Swords for these uses must be made by someone experienced (and usually certified) for such use. They can cut all the tatami they want at home, but if they take it to a dojo they will be told to take it back to the car.

All the above are concerns for something that will cost a hundreds of dollars in materials - plus HT - plus polishing - plus koshirae - etc. and possibly months in time.

Sometimes it is best to honestly ask yourself if you are ready for such a project. A wise man will listen to his answer. A fool will ignore it.


Hi Stacy, I've been doing the Korean version of kendo for some many years now, and related martial arts. So dojang/dojo etiquette I'm certainly aware of.

Shhh..dont tell anyone but I used to run the place. :-)

When I had a forge and a power hammer I would have made my own, ill use Japanese terms since you know those, sunobe.

So yes I'm aware this is an extraordinarily wasteful exercise.

What I am making take some explanation i suppose.

There are some many variants of katana and tachi, but what apparently gets lost in history is war swords. Dueling katana, at least in my system, are slender and more speedy affair than war katana.

War katana tend to be thicker, wider in style and the grind goes all the way up to the edge.

I am making a fairly famous dueling katana, as a war katana.

The blade is called, the drying pole, most famously wielded by Sasaki kojiro when he lost to Musashi.

History isn't clear whether or not its a straight sword from China, a war jian, or if it is something between katana and nodachi, with a big o-kissaki.

I'm 5'10, 235 lbs. Our system is the Korean equivalent of batto-jutsu. I never liked store bought katana as they were like whippy sticks.

So I need a 48 x .5 x 1.5 because I'm going to cut the shape of the sunobe out.

It will have a longer tang and a 31 inch blade with o-kissaki. So 40 inches would be perfect. But who sells that?

I was fairly good with a power hammer in years past, but that was 20 years ago.

I have a fair bit of hand tooling for metal work and quite the woodshop for wood.

Hope that explains what I want.

My blades final dimensions, naked, with fullering and engraving will be about 2.5 lbs. With the carved bone handle and the brass tsuba(weight relieved of course) I'll be in around 5lbs.

I hope that explains things. I really just want a place I can buy some steel. I'm sure there's a learning curve, but, being locked in during a pandemic and working from home...what is there to do but make swords, hug dogs and drink some soju?
 
let me make a honest suggestion to/for you... contact a local truck spring shop, that builds helper springs for trucks,,
they stock the kind of steels you want ,might even be willing/able to forge a distal taper into it for you (surely for a fee)
once you have shaped it they have a forge big enough to heat treat it for you (again surely for a fee)...
i had a local spring shop close by years ago and they were great guys working there/running the place....
just a thought for ya....
 
let me make a honest suggestion to/for you... contact a local truck spring shop, that builds helper springs for trucks,,
they stock the kind of steels you want ,might even be willing/able to forge a distal taper into it for you (surely for a fee)
once you have shaped it they have a forge big enough to heat treat it for you (again surely for a fee)...
i had a local spring shop close by years ago and they were great guys working there/running the place....
just a thought for ya....

I have about a ton of leaf spring in my back yard . If I were making barong or Ginunting that would be just fine.

However, I like hamon on katana and unfortunately 5160 doesn't do hamon well.
 
OK, I understand your war sword plan. About twenty years ago I made almost exactly the same style early jian war sword, but at shoto-katana size with the finished length at 32", Nagasa 22", nakago 7". It was hira-tsukuri with mitsu-mune. Sugata was almost straight, maybe 3mm sori. Mihaba was 1.4" and kasane was just at .250". IIRC, it weight a tad over 2#. All the koshirae was done in mokume (which was a significant part of the weight). Silk ito over same tsuka. It was a tad heavy, but the longish tsuka and extra rear weigh made it easy to wield, giving a much lighter in the hand feel. It was made out of one of the billets I had done by Chris Marks. 15 layer 52100 core and suminagashi san-mai with.020" pure nickel between the core and san-mai. There may be an old photo floating around. I'll look for it.

It will be a daunting task to do by a hand grinder, and I really hope you can get 12 pounds down to 2.5 pounds as easily as you plan. That is an 80% reduction.

HT will still be an issue. You might try a charcoal trench with an air pipe and do your own. You can get the two types of clay needed from Pop's knife supply for $30 a jar. They has a good video on the application.

There are many online sources for yaki-ire instructions. You can call JT and ask if he will do it. He's a good fellow, but that is a big job and he is a very busy guy.

If all this is what you plan, then I would go with .375" 1075 from Aldo. .375X1.5X48 - $50 and in stock Trust me, you will be happy with this size. It should weight about 7.5 pounds.

You can pre add the sori with a hammer before starting the stock removal. This will allow you to use 5 or10 gallons of Parks #50 or canola oil instead of brine. The hamon will still be crisp, but warp and cracking will be reduced.
 
Hi Stacy,
OK, I understand your war sword plan. About twenty years ago I made almost exactly the same style early jian war sword, but at shoto-katana size with the finished length at 32", Nagasa 22", nakago 7". It was hira-tsukuri with mitsu-mune. Sugata was almost straight, maybe 3mm sori. Mihaba was 1.4" and kasane was just at .250". IIRC, it weight a tad over 2#. All the koshirae was done in mokume (which was a significant part of the weight). Silk ito over same tsuka. It was a tad heavy, but the longish tsuka and extra rear weigh made it easy to wield, giving a much lighter in the hand feel. It was made out of one of the billets I had done by Chris Marks. 15 layer 52100 core and suminagashi san-mai with.020" pure nickel between the core and san-mai. There may be an old photo floating around. I'll look for it.

It will be a daunting task to do by a hand grinder, and I really hope you can get 12 pounds down to 2.5 pounds as easily as you plan. That is an 80% reduction.

HT will still be an issue. You might try a charcoal trench with an air pipe and do your own. You can get the two types of clay needed from Pop's knife supply for $30 a jar. They has a good video on the application.

There are many online sources for yaki-ire instructions. You can call JT and ask if he will do it. He's a good fellow, but that is a big job and he is a very busy guy.

If all this is what you plan, then I would go with .375" 1075 from Aldo. .375X1.5X48 - $50 and in stock Trust me, you will be happy with this size. It should weight about 7.5 pounds.

You can pre add the sori with a hammer before starting the stock removal. This will allow you to use 5 or10 gallons of Parks #50 or canola oil instead of brine. The hamon will still be crisp, but warp and cracking will be reduced.

I'll order both sizes to experiment. More steel purchased is another blade to make.

What I'm confused about is how I'm going to temper this blade after yaki ire. Any suggestions? Its not gonna fit in my oven.
 
You can carefully temper it with a torch, but a kitchen oven works, too. Bring the oven up to temperature and place the blade in at a diagonal with the nakago at the top right of the door and the kissaki at the rear left of the oven. You can place a piece of kaowool along the door top gap, but it is a surprisingly small gap. Temper for an hour, then reverse the blade. Cool and repeat.

If you have a spring shop near you, or a machine shop with a powder coat oven, they can temper it easily.
 
I can't find the photos of the battle sword. Here is a big batch of blades in various stages. They are all various types of san-mai with white or blue paper cores - Suminagashi, shirogami, warikomi, han san mai kitae, etc. Most are just cut and basic profiled waiting for forging to final shape. They will end up longer and wider when forged out.
san-mai blades.JPG
 
So hamon clay....by the by I did order .375 at steel baron. Victoria is a sweetie.

I ordered both 1075 and w2.

What clay mix should I use? Does anyone have an easily replicable mix of stuff or a brand of furnace clay?
 
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