Hey guys another comparison

B

breakdown52

Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
189
So I've never liked the liner locks due to the fact that they seem to wear away to fast. But I've started looking at the paramilitary 2 and I love it. The only thing I don't like is it relies on the same principle as a liner lock... Just on steroids. I don't own one so before I decide on it I want to know if anybody has noticed the same problem I've described in liner locks.
 
I have never had a liner lock "wear" out, even after moderate use of 15 years or so, I'm talking Kershaw/Emerson and the like.
 
I have not noticed the problem and I still do not notice it on regular liner locks most the time if the knife is quality. Some of the budget Kershaws and knives the lock will where faster but still hold up for years. It also depends on the thickness of the liner. If you buy from a good company or maker it will be just fine. The Para 2 will hold up so do not worry, great knife and the lock is solid.
 
The only liner locks I have seen that have
had issues are the ones
made out of exotic materials.
Titanium.

That is why you will see them with carburization "ZT550"
or a steel plate "Domino" where they meet the blade.

Or you where doing something abusive to it.
Spine slap.

I have an old kershaw liner lock that has been flicked
a Billizion times when I had it and now my nephew has it
who is doing the same.
No issues.

And "IF" you do.

Send it back to the factory.
 
breakdown52 said:
So I've never liked the liner locks due to the fact that they seem to wear away to fast. But I've started looking at the paramilitary 2 and I love it. The only thing I don't like is it relies on the same principle as a liner lock... Just on steroids. I don't own one so before I decide on it I want to know if anybody has noticed the same problem I've described in liner locks.
Click to expand...
I don't mean to call you out but that's not the case, a liner lock acts by bending over to meet the tang, therefore it or the tang can wear down over time, the comp lock (CL) doesn't work the same way at all, it acts similar in that a steel liner is sprung and bends over when the tang clears it but it doesn't wedge against the tang the same way, in a CL a piece of the liner actually gets smashed in between the tang and a stop pin.

Again I don't mean to call you out but its much more than "a liner lock on steroids", have a look at some YT videos on how it operates.

*note I'm not at all a "fan boy", in fact I've never even owned a CL knife but other than mode of disengaugedmeant (pushing a liner over out of the way) the CL is pretty far from a LL.
 
Cereal_killer said:
I don't mean to call you out but that's not the case, a liner lock acts by bending over to meet the tang, therefore it or the tang can wear down over time, the comp lock (CL) doesn't work the same way at all, it acts similar in that a steel liner is sprung and bends over when the tang clears it but it doesn't wedge against the tang the same way, in a CL a piece of the liner actually gets smashed in between the tang and a stop pin.

Again I don't mean to call you out but its much more than "a liner lock on steroids", have a look at some YT videos on how it operates.

*note I'm not at all a "fan boy", in fact I've never even owned a CL knife but other than mode of disengaugedmeant (pushing a liner over out of the way) the CL is pretty far from a LL.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I look at the yt video like you said
 
The compression lock is nothing like a liner lock. The liner that snaps over does not make contact with the blade tang in the manner a liner lock does. It is one of if not the strongest locks available. Now people will argue that but Spyderco does testing that shows how strong the compression lock is in regards to other types of locks.

Someone else is going to have to come along and explain the exact workings of this lock.

Also, a well built, and correctly built liner lock is a good lock that can last you a lifetime. The problem arises with the cheaply made knives that use a liner lock because a liner lock is easier to make incorrectly than correctly. All you have to do is make a cut in one liner, bend it out and you have a liner lock. Unhardened and paper thin liner locks are what you the most in the $5 and under knives.


Knew someone would come along and explain the principle behind it. Great job ck
 
Last edited:
cutter17 said:
The compression lock is nothing like a liner lock. The liner that snaps over does not make contact with the blade tang in the manner a liner lock does. It is one of if not the strongest locks available. Now people will argue that but Spyderco does testing that shows how strong the compression lock is in regards to other types of locks.

Someone else is going to have to come along and explain the exact workings of this lock.

Also, a well built, and correctly built liner lock is a good lock that can last you a lifetime. The problem arises with the cheaply made knives that use a liner lock because a liner lock is easier to make incorrectly than correctly. All you have to do is make a cut in one liner, bend it out and you have a liner lock. Unhardened and paper thin liner locks are what you the most in the $5 and under knives.
Click to expand...

Why do people complain if their liner is locking past 50%? Is it that big of a deal?
 
I guess it depends on how fast it got past 50%. There will be some wear and titanium seems to wear faster than hardened steel. And some liners will get to a point along the blade tang and just stop with no more wearing occurring for a very long time. There are some folks who prefer early lockup, while others prefer later lockup. Those who prefer early lockup are the ones you hear from when the lockup gets beyond 50%. I'm in that group. If the wear takes places over a matter of days, and it depends where lockup occurred to begin with, then there may be cause to worry, but if it happens over a period of years, then I would think no big deal. Those of us who like early lockup like it because it gives room for wear to occur, but if it happens to fast then........well, we complain.

Btw, if my post sounds a bit disjointed its probably because I haven't been to sleep since wednesday night. So forgive me.:)
 
I would put the compression lock in the same category as the Axis, Ball bearing, and piston type of locking mechanisms. Where a piece of material is wedged between the blade tang and a stop pin.
 
NorthernSouthpaw said:
I would put the compression lock in the same category as the Axis, Ball bearing, and piston type of locking mechanisms. Where a piece of material is wedged between the blade tang and a stop pin.
Click to expand...

I have to agree. Aside from the user interface, a compression lock is nothing like a liner or frame lock.

The way the forces are distributed is completely different. I have to say it's a wonder of engineering and ingenuity. It's so simple yet very strong.
 
Hmmm I'm gonna disagree with most, liner locks and compression locks are basically the same thing. A leaf spring (from the liner) which when the blade tang clears, locks the blade open by traveling across a ramped surface until it wedges against that ramp. The only differences are the orientation of said leaf spring and the blade, and strength of the lock.

In terms of wear on the tang/lock bar, there really is no difference between a CL and a liner lock. The real difference is the fact that the stop pin sits just above the lock spring in the CL so when pressure is applied to the spine of the blade, the liner bears the load only until the liner contacts the stop pin (which is fractions of a millimeter away) which then provides the aforementioned strength by transferring the force through the liner into the pin. The stop pin should have no effect on amount of wear of the mating surfaces.

The compression lock is a liner lock that, after moving the orientation of the interface, allows for the inclusion of a bracing pin (which in this case also is the stop pin) to increase the strength of the lock.
 
kniferbro said:
Hmmm I'm gonna disagree with most, liner locks and compression locks are basically the same thing. A leaf spring (from the liner) which when the blade tang clears, locks the blade open by traveling across a ramped surface until it wedges against that ramp. The only differences are the orientation of said leaf spring and the blade, and strength of the lock.

In terms of wear on the tang/lock bar, there really is no difference between a CL and a liner lock. The real difference is the fact that the stop pin sits just above the lock spring in the CL so when pressure is applied to the spine of the blade, the liner bears the load only until the liner contacts the stop pin (which is fractions of a millimeter away) which then provides the aforementioned strength by transferring the force through the liner into the pin. The stop pin should have no effect on amount of wear of the mating surfaces.

The compression lock is a liner lock that, after moving the orientation of the interface, allows for the inclusion of a bracing pin (which in this case also is the stop pin) to increase the strength of the lock.
Click to expand...

Well you don't understand the force distribution of a compression lock then. When fully engaged, the lock bar on the compression lock doesn't bear any load. It contacts the pin throughout the range of motion. The load is transferred to the pin directly. The part of the bar wedged between the tang and the stop pin only closes the gap between the two.

The tang of the blade is slightly angled too, so as part of the lock bar wears down, it will simply travel further down the blade tang before fully locking up.

On a liner lock, the lock bar bears the entire load of a force applied on the blade spine. It is also inherently much less stable than the compression lock as vibrations can make the surfaces slip and the lock bar can be pushed out of the way of the blade tang, disengaging the lock. The bar is also weaker as it can be bent, the longer the lock bar, the easier it will bend out of shape and may disengage. Same goes with the frame lock.

Inherently, the compression, ball bearing, axis, triad and bolt action locks are the stronger and most stable designs. I put them in the top category myself.

Then the back lock is pretty much on its own in terms of strength and stability, in the middle.

And, the least stable/strong locks by design are the liner and frame locks, especially vintages that are of "early lockup."

*puts flame suit on*

Have a look at yt videos explaining how the compression lock works. It has nothing to do with your typical liner lock.
 
Last edited:
uxo2 said:
The only liner locks I have seen that have
had issues are the ones
made out of exotic materials.
Titanium.

That is why you will see them with carburization "ZT550"
or a steel plate "Domino" where they meet the blade.

Or you where doing something abusive to it.
Spine slap.

I have an old kershaw liner lock that has been flicked
a Billizion times when I had it and now my nephew has it
who is doing the same.
No issues.

And "IF" you do.

Send it back to the factory.
Click to expand...

How come you wrote this like the lyrics to a song?

Compression lock:

lock_compression.gif


compresslock.jpg


While the compression lock may look a bit like a liner lock, I think it functions more like the tri-ad lock than anything. The triad lock is considered as one of the strongest folder locks.
 
Last edited:
Hmmm... having used liner locks in my construction job for all kinds of tasks, I have never had one fail. The three I have in mind are my Kershaw Tremor, a Kershaw JYD II, a Blur, and the beefy RAT1.

The RAT1 and the Tremor do most of the dirty work of cutting shingles (in an emergency), cutting fiberglass strapping, opening heavy boxes, etc. They also do a bit of light prying, scraping, and other things I won't use an expensive knife to do.

All of them have been "on the job" for years, and all of them lock up tight as a drum even after using them as utility knives for years. They get no special treatment. When they are filthy with tar, butyl caulk, paint, or just gunk I clean them with charcoal lighter fluid and let them dry out. A drop or two of light oil on the pivot and they are back on duty.

Perhaps better knives are the key. I had a guy that worked for me that had a cheapie with a liner lock and the liner bent in a week of use and bowed to where it wouldn't lock. What I see mostly though, is on the cheapie knives with thin liners is that when torqued, the liner will pass the blade altogether and wedge between the blade and the liner on the other side. Those are junkers, crap, and dangerous to boot.

The RAT1 was my first heavy duty liner and it changed my mind about that locking system. The weakest liner lock I have is a Tenacious, and while it is a spiffy knife I don't carry it to work anymore. To me, the liners are just too thin and I don't trust it, although it hasn't failed. Try to get a knife that has liners that are good and thick and beveled correctly (not a flat stamping) to engage the tang of the blade fully. That should probably do the trick on a quality liner lock.

Robert
 
No one is saying that liner locks suck. It was just said that its weaker than other locks. And that other than the fact that a comression lock uses part of the liner to engage. It is completely a different lockup than a liner lock.
 
MIKE969 said:
Well you don't understand the force distribution of a compression lock then. When fully engaged, the lock bar on the compression lock doesn't bear any load. It contacts the pin throughout the range of motion. The load is transferred to the pin directly. The part of the bar wedged between the tang and the stop pin only closes the gap between the two.

The tang of the blade is slightly angled too, so as part of the lock bar wears down, it will simply travel further down the blade tang before fully locking up.

On a liner lock, the lock bar bears the entire load of a force applied on the blade spine. It is also inherently much less stable than the compression lock as vibrations can make the surfaces slip and the lock bar can be pushed out of the way of the blade tang, disengaging the lock. The bar is also weaker as it can be bent, the longer the lock bar, the easier it will bend out of shape and may disengage. Same goes with the frame lock.

Inherently, the compression, ball bearing, axis, triad and bolt action locks are the stronger and most stable designs. I put them in the top category myself.

Then the back lock is pretty much on its own in terms of strength and stability, in the middle.

And, the least stable/strong locks by design are the liner and frame locks, especially vintages that are of "early lockup."

*puts flame suit on*

Have a look at yt videos explaining how the compression lock works. It has nothing to do with your typical liner lock.
Click to expand...

Did you even read my post? You explained exactly what I just did... Read my post again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top