Hey Spark

[Les Robertson]

Kevin,

I can safely say that I think "you don't get it". Why did you allow YOUR membership to abuse Gus to the point that he felt it necessary to resign. Why didn't you step in when this was going on.

Kevin, you are the reason that Gus resigned. You did nothing (within the view of those in the room) to stop what was going on.

Kevin, if the moderator is being abused, isn't it your job to step in and help them? Where were you?

Additionally, what you don't get is, that your lack of support for your moderators and willingness to set standars impacts in two ways.

First, do you really think you will readily be able to find a replacement for Gus? You put him in there with Howard Faltz and KnifeArt. These two moderators, seldom if ever contributed to the room in a moderator position. It was always left to Gus. He did this neither for money or fame, he did this because of his passion for custom knives. His reward...you let YOUR membership abuse him to the point he felt it necessary to resign.

Second, your lack of support and loyalty to your moderators impacts on others who post here.

Kevin as a full time custom knife dealer, I will talk to more custom knife buyers, collectors, dealers and makers in week than you will in a year...because it is my job. I have received a lot of feedback from these people. Many of these well known custom knife people expressed the following to me.

They only lurk now and read what is written. Because they don't want to get into an arguement with some no name 14 year old kid who is on his mommy's computer. Or the guy I got into an arguement with here who was recommending custom knives and finally admitted he had never even held a custom knife.

Rarely check her anymore.

Don't ever come back.

Kevin, this is something constructive. I am telling you that you are not only losing members. You are losing the expertise that draws many people to this custom knife forum.

Ok Kevin, Ill take your word that it is impossible to get people to use their real names. How about we split the difference. Every member starting 1 week from today is, at a minimium, is requried to list their valid email in their profile. Being the software wizard you are, you can probably make that happen when they register. As you have to received a valid email from the individual so you can send them their password.

As time goes on, everyone will have to comply or they will not be allowed on BF. If we as members find someone with a non-existant email or invalid email. You suspend their ability to post on BF until such time as they comply. If they don't want to comply, then it is probably in the best interest of Bladeforums not to have them back.

Yes, you will lose some membership, but are anonymous trolls the kind of members you really want to have here?.

Kevin, don't use the "Internet is anonymous" BS here. This is your forum now. The ISP for web sites didnt work out for you, you are no longer using banner advertsing, all the dealers have left, well almost
. So you should no longer be concerned with having the highest number. You should be going for quality not quantity.

If that is too much trouble, then make the custom forum "password protected", like Whine and Cheese used to be. The only stipulation for a password is that you list at a miniumum your email address.

That being said, if what I propose costs money then charge a annual $5 fee to be a member/with posting privilages. Note, this is only for the custom knife forum. This should cover whatever costs associated with pass word protecting Custom Knife Forums.

You may be thinking, this will keep people away from the forum. No, they can read all they want. However, if they want to post or repspond to a post, they have to pay the $5.00 anual fee for that.

I know you are probably a little gun shy about asking for money right now.

But, I will put my money where my mouth is and send the first $5.00 for a room that we only discuss custom knives in. That is free of the anonymous "members" who snipe without fear of retribution.

Kevin, you should know enough that every single person on this forum and elsewhere who is self-employed. By the nature of their self-employment puts their "money where their mouth is" every day. I am surprised that you would openly insult all the self-employed members of Bladeforums like that.

As for me putting my money where my mouth is Kevin, your memory is short. Kevin, who was the only custom knife dealer/maker/collector in the world, to spend the money to get their own forum on BF. Let me refresh your memory....ME.

Blues, don't be to quick to close this. This is for your benefit as well. We will hate to see you resign 6 months from now.

 

[Blues]

Les,

While I can appreciate that your motives may be good, I don't believe that this pissing match belongs in the Custom Forum. So I'm moving it.

At your request, I'll leave it open for you guys to hash it out.

I'm sending it to Service and Support for those of you who wish to continue the debacle there.

Les, in truth I don't know how long I'll last in the position, or how long the members will wish me to. When one or the other becomes compelling, I guess we'll take it from there.

No disrespect intended here, but this forum just doesn't need the infighting any longer.

 

[Spark]

Originally posted by Les Robertson
Kevin,
I can safely say that I think "you don't get it".

I forgot I had the awesome power of omniscience. Les, I think you have this exactly backwards. I "get it" just fine - it's you who doesn't have a clue.

Why did you allow YOUR membership to abuse Gus to the point that he felt it necessary to resign. Why didn't you step in when this was going on.

That's like saying "Why did you *allow* people to breathe," or "Why did you allow it to rain", I have no control over certain things.

As for why I wasn't there immediately, maybe you can accept
1. I can't monitor everything by myself, 24 hours a day.
2. Gus didn't inform me he was feeling this way.
3. My time was occupied with small matters like reinstalling software on my laptop, and fixing our servers and running 2 businesses

I didn't know this was going on because in addition to running a business, I've 60 + forums to keep tabs on. This means I can't be everywhere at ›±¨. I'm only human.

I just got off the phone with Gus, and we had a good discussion over this issue, and hopefully when he's had some time to decompress, he'll come back on board. The first thing he told me is that he fully knew that if he'd contacted me, I'd be all over this like white on rice, and apologize that he hadn't. He even apologized for this situation, even though he did nothing (IMHO) wrong.

So, Les, not only are you wrong, but you are way wrong.

Kevin, you are the reason that Gus resigned.

That, quite frankly, is bullshit. Les, obviously do you *not* "get it" but furthermore, you seem to have a tangental grasp on reality.

You did nothing (within the view of those in the room) to stop what was going on.

Kevin, if the moderator is being abused, isn't it your job to step in and help them? Where were you?

As said before, I was off taking care of my business, fixing our servers, etc. What, do you expect me to monitor the forums 24 / 7? Get real. If something comes up, and I don't notice it happens, then sometimes I miss it entirely. Take a look at the opening page of the forums, Les. We've over 85220 threads, and 692506 posts. Do you think anyone can honestly keep an eye on any of them?

I can only do so much. If a moderator is having a problem, and I'm online, I can be emailed and notified. Or, if I'm on the forums, someone can send a private message. If I'm offline, I can be reached by phone, I even have a toll free number.

If no one notifies me, or if I can't be reached, then guess what? There's nothing I can do if I hadn't noticed it already.

Additionally, what you don't get is, that your lack of support for your moderators and willingness to set standars impacts in two ways.

First, do you really think you will readily be able to find a replacement for Gus? You put him in there with Howard Faltz and KnifeArt. These two moderators, seldom if ever contributed to the room in a moderator position. It was always left to Gus. He did this neither for money or fame, he did this because of his passion for custom knives. His reward...you let YOUR membership abuse him to the point he felt it necessary to resign.

I'm not even going to dignify this with a detailed response.

Second, your lack of support and loyalty to your moderators impacts on others who post here.

Really. I more than support my moderators when they ask for it, and even when they don't. Perhaps you confuse your own experience where you not only were in the wrong, and had to deal with the consequences of your own actions, than when I do back up my moderators.

Kevin as a full time custom knife dealer, I will talk to more custom knife buyers, collectors, dealers and makers in week than you will in a year...because it is my job. I have received a lot of feedback from these people. Many of these well known custom knife people expressed the following to me.

They only lurk now and read what is written. Because they don't want to get into an arguement with some no name 14 year old kid who is on his mommy's computer. Or the guy I got into an arguement with here who was recommending custom knives and finally admitted he had never even held a custom knife.

Rarely check her anymore. Don't ever come back.

Really Les. Guess what? You can't have a popular, vibrant, growing *totalitarian* regime on the internet, despite whatever fantasies you may harbor.

Let me educate you in the realities of the Internet. Listen carefully you can hear the sound of your bubble bursting: Behind a computer screen, anyone can be anything. There is no way to verify just who is or is not someone - you can't even do it with credit cards, as even they can be faked.

I'm sorry that people lurk, but I can't control that. I also can't help it if certain people are overwhelmed by the dynamic that this forum provides. You can either adapt to it, or not deal with it. Just like at a convention, if someone comes up and hassles you, you can either handle it like a gentleman, or run off and hide. The choice is yours.

Kevin, this is something constructive. I am telling you that you are not only losing members. You are losing the expertise that draws many people to this custom knife forum.

Ok Kevin, Ill take your word that it is impossible to get people to use their real names. How about we split the difference. Every member starting 1 week from today is, at a minimium, is requried to list their valid email in their profile. Being the software wizard you are, you can probably make that happen when they register. As you have to received a valid email from the individual so you can send them their password.
[snip]
Yes, you will lose some membership, but are anonymous trolls the kind of members you really want to have here?

Sorry, but I value other people's privacy more than your being able to ferret out information. You see, not everyone want's their information displayed publicly. We have certain celebrities who frequent here. We have others who use their company information to participate, or don't want their home emails published.

The greater good is not served by forcing everyone to post all of their information. It does more harm than good. If a few abuse this, it happens. Otherwise, you can't make an omelete.

Just like in everyday life, you are <b>not</b> entitled to know everything about everyone. If someone chooses to be "unlisted" you don't get to know where they live, what their phone number is, etc. Their right to privacy outweighs your "need" to know. So, if they don't want to show their email address, they don't have to. Those who don't, well, you can point that out and it will affect their credibility.

Kevin, don't use the "Internet is anonymous" BS here. [snip]

Sorry Les, but just like saying a Randall is a custom, you are dead wrong, as usual on <b>this</b> subject.

If that is too much trouble, then make the custom forum "password protected", like Whine and Cheese used to be. The only stipulation for a password is that you list at a miniumum your email address.

And while we are at it, why not cut of our noses to spite our faces? After all, let's actively discourage participation, and make things as uncomfortable as possible.

That being said, if what I propose costs money then charge a annual $5 fee to be a member/with posting privilages. Note, this is only for the custom knife forum. This should cover whatever costs associated with pass word protecting Custom Knife Forums.

You may be thinking, this will keep people away from the forum. No, they can read all they want. However, if they want to post or repspond to a post, they have to pay the $5.00 anual fee for that.

I know you are probably a little gun shy about asking for money right now.

But, I will put my money where my mouth is and send the first $5.00 for a room that we only discuss custom knives in. That is free of the anonymous "members" who snipe without fear of retribution.

Tell you what, Les, how about a compromise. I'll give you a chance to *really* put your money where your mouth is.
You guarantee me a level of membership, who will sign up at $10 per year, enough to support itself and pay it's own way. I will go so far as to create a seperate site just for Custom Knives, just like BladeForums.com.

You can even run it however you choose - I'll make you the supreme leader and you can run with the ball. You appoint moderators. You ban users. You create forums. I'll just maintain the software back end, charge the cards, and activate memberships. You can take the responsibility if it works or not.

Heck, to further put my money where my mouth is, I just registered a URL for it - CustomKnifeForums.com. I'll even pay for another software liscense for the boards, and I'll even host it right here on our server.

Now, you get to put your money where your mouth is - Can you guarantee w/aJmbership level that would support it's being open, and staying open? Are you willing to reimburse me for all costs involved if it doesn't pan out? I've already paid for the server, domain name, T1, and etc. I'll just expect you to reimburse the software, domain name, and associated fees involved in this should it fail to pan out.

You willing to put *your* reputation and finances on the line, and do some work? Do have what it takes?
You seem awfully willing to volunteer my resources, and you love so much to take me to task because I don't do things your way, so here's your chance to step up to the plate. Gut check time, Les.

Kevin, you should know enough that every single person on this forum and elsewhere who is self-employed. By the nature of their self-employment puts their "money where their mouth is" every day. I am surprised that you would openly insult all the self-employed members of Bladeforums like that.

As for me putting my money where my mouth is Kevin, your memory is short. Kevin, who was the only custom knife dealer/maker/collector in the world, to spend the money to get their own forum on BF. Let me refresh your memory....ME.

Let me tell you something, Les. Your memory is much shorter. For all of your Lip Service, you show an amazing amount of hypocracy.

You paid $300 2 years ago for your own forum in the Dealers section. That entitled you to an exclusive area that you could sell in, no more, no less. You weren't alone there, Knife Outlet signed up for one as well.

Previous to that, you singularly failed to shine as a moderator of the Custom Knife Forum, failing to live up to your own personal responsibility and adhere to the standards that we'd set forth for everyone on the forums. You further failed miserably to respect the guidelines we'd set forth for moderators, much less common courtesy on many occasions. Whenever something didn't go your way, instead of accepting our decisions and moving on, you pitched a fit and acted like a petulant child, very similarly to how you are acting now.

You have a wealth of knowledge in the custom knife world. No one is begrudging you that.

However, you singularly fail to measure up as any kind of leader in <b>this</b> arena. You aren't interested in fostering a community, instead, you just sit back and stay silent unless you have an opportunity to either pick at others, or preen your feathers.

You are extremely adept at standing back, and letting others do the work. You are more than willing to snipe at others, but somehow expect not to be treated the same way. You are very good at twisting the facts, or ignoring the truth. Heck, you've shown a natural aptitude at taking potshots at me.

It's a lot harder to build something than it is to tear it down.

You want to prove me wrong, you are more than welcome to step up to the plate.

In the meantime, put your money where your mouth is. I've handed you the opportunity here with CustomKnifeForums.com. If you can't handle it, let me know.

Kevin

 

[C4]

Kevin,

Eloquently put...

I am quite sure that the general public at Custom does not hold you responsible for what happened with Gus... (and I still hope he comes back!!!)

Michael

 

[Gus Kalanzis]

I do not want to get neck deep into this, but I will say had I said anything to Kevin there is no doubt that he would have stepped in.