Hi, new guy with a topic...

Gonzo_Beyondo

Gonzo_Beyondo

Joined
Jun 9, 2003
Messages
476
Greetings folks,
I've been reading here for awhile and decided to join in.
Nice place you've grown here :)

I've read alot of different topics, and one hits home for me especially. I'd like to have a reasonable collective chat about it.
Hopefully, the thread will stay friendly.

First a bit about me.
I'm 26 years old.
For the past 10 years i've been disabled. I have a deteriorating spine, herniated discs, rotated sacrum, and nerve damage in both legs and one arm.
Now my story isn't the worst going, and i don't feel sorry for myself. I can still walk, see, hear, and the only real bother is pain at this point. Many folks, and i'm sure some of you, have it much worse than me, so i consider myself lucky.

Reason i'm even telling you that aspect, is because it affects my wallet. I'm pretty broke, which is the major contributing factor to this topic.
I don't get a dime from the gov't, and i manage a humble living working for myself. Being unable to sleep normally, it allows me to work at 3am if i need to. Sadly since 9/11 alot of ppl here in NY are hard up as well and work has been horribly slow, near non-existant.

To the point:

I love knives. Especially autos! I love them with a passion, and i always have. I especially love custom knives. I appreciate the work immensely. Without a doubt, at least the vast majority of you reading this do too. My problem... i can't even afford to look at one for too long! Truth is, i have no actual need for AUS8 steel, or carbon blades, titanium handles, or carbon fiber inlays.

Like i said, i'm pretty damn poor, and while i appreciate the fine art that a custom blade is, sadly these works are just out of my grasp.
Take the production blades,
I value the edge-holding armor-piercing blades from Benchmade, SOG, Cold Steel, etc... but IF i could afford one, how would i actually justify it, when all i mainly do with knives is look at them?

This leads me to clones.
Perhaps not clones exactly, but "cheap knives" in general.
When i go out Saturday morning to the Flea market, i have in my heart the hope that i'll find a really cool knife. Typically i find many shoddy ones, or designs which don't appeal to me...
But on occasion, i'm thrilled to find a blade that stands out, typically at a cost of $5-$10. Sometimes, i'll find 3 acceptable blades, and barter the dealer to 3 for $12. I go home almost ecstatic.

A question on clones:

What is it about blade "design"?
Please, NO DISRESPECT intended here guys!

What i'm saying is...
You have the "old standards" out there, i.e.
The USMC type, The Fairbairn, The typical Tanto, The Balisong, Italian Stilletto, and of course, many more...
I feel *somewhat* that almost every design has already been done to some extent, and that even if a design is totally never-before-seen...
To be the sole designer/manufacturer/seller of said design,
at the unreachable cost of custom knives (lets say hypothetical $750) really keeps the design, which may be AWESOME, it keeps that OUT of the hands of MOST people!

As someone said in these forums,
If you wanted a Mona Lisa on your wall, would you buy the original?
To me, that makes perfect sense and corresponds exactly to my situation.

Folks let me say, especially you artists out there,
I am dying for the day i can own your proud work.
In this meantime, i can display your design on my shelf, and to me, if i can relate it to a specific design or MFR. and i like the design itself, i know then that "Hey, he's one guy to check out! I really like his way of thinking how a knife oughta look/feel/etc.."

Man, i know this is long, but theres so much more i wanna say on this topic! I'll wrap it up here tho, and wait for your replies...
Hopefully, i can make you see a few things about me, and not hate me.

First, i think designers ought to be compensated for their designs.
Second, Imitation IS flattery
Third, I don't know anyone who thinks a $5 flea knife is *Good*
Fourth, I try to know who designed/made my 'style' blade so i can tell those who ask, where a real one can be had... and why it would be better!

and finally,
my blades are mostly left sitting on display. I truly enjoy looking at them, flipping or pushing the button...
The copies let me collect, without them, i'd have only ugly plain wal-mart utility blades. Not much for a display.

BTW,
over the years, the cash from all the knives i've bought, coulda been saved towards a real good knife...
say: 10 years saving up $700-$1000 dollars, for an unused, one knife display. Not much of a collection :(

I think theres a place for cheap knives. I just wish they were made appropriately, with designers consent. For the good of the hobby, as a whole.
 
Well hello and welcome to the forum. First off if you want people to reply and give you info you have to kkep those post to resonable ammount of reading. No one likes to spend 5 minute reading pots and then forgeting what half the post was about or reading about other lives.

If you have a question then ask if not then don't it's not a chat room.

Buy CRKT they are cheap and good and you can't go wrong. If you can work some cash loose then Buy Benchmade and don't justify it just do it.
 
My heart goes out to you as I know what it is to live with pain.

The thing about knockoffs is that the person being copied usually is not compensated aside from the fact that no one usually asks for their permission. Then there is the issue of the knives being inferior, and dangerous. There are however compromises such as crkt knives which are fairly well built (many designed by customer makers), but not of expenisve materials making them affordable for most anyone. A cheap $5 cannot really be made well any way you look at it. It does cost some money to make it right though. Take crkt for exapmle you can find some of their knives costing between $9.99 and up (you have to search) and they are decent and affordable,

example: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=82960

When it comes to customs, personally I feel many are overpriced, on the same hand you have to consider though that you are talking about a persons time, materials, design, ect.
 
You might consider signing up for one of the forum pass-arounds (that would at least offer you the opportunity of handling "better made" knives). Also check out the forum exchanges, you might find less expensive production knives for the price you're paying for flea market stuff.
 
Welcome to the forums Gonzo! I for one love long posts, so keep 'em coming!

I understand the argument for collecting knock-offs just as a collectible. However, collecting knock-offs still supports the companies that make these copies legally and/or morally questioanbly so. Having a clone of a DDR or a Kit Carson knife on your shelf isn't really having an example of a DDR or a Carson design- you have someone's ripped off copy of a good design. That ugly feature is being displayed. In art there is a standard practice of selling prints and such. If you can't afford the Mona Lisa, you can buy a nice copy! You can even get some artists to custom paint you one. But this is just like in knives. If you can't afford a Carson M-16, you can get a "copy"- that is a factory collaboration version from CRKT in this case. These folks selling knock-offs though skirt around the artist. It would be as if an artist made a painting and registered it or trademarked it or whatever, and licenced one company to make prints for peopel to buy the prints. But some other company went ahead and made prints of the artist's work, not compensating the artist, skirting around the system that the artist wanted in place, etc.

If there is a Mona Lisa knife out there that you want, I'd suggest finding some way to save up and pay for it. Even if it takes a few years, it would be worth it. If you cannot wait that long, see if there are some factory collaborations available that you can save up for and buy instead. Buying clones just supports the ripoff artists and angers the artists whose work you admire. For example, a zytel handles M-16 from CRKT costs $33.99 from www.1sks.com which is less than 1/10 the price of a custom right from Kit Carson. Lots of times you can find deals on inexpensive factory knives, and searching for deals could be part of the fun. Also, chech the for sale section here- lots of folks have new or like new knives at great prices. One of the reasosn that I turned to knife making was to hopefully sell a few blades so that I coudl buy the knvies that I want to collect. Though I have only sold 3 knives, I am making one for a customer now and that money will be used to fund my knife habit. See if you can find something that can be an extra source of income that can be put towards saving for knives- the work will totally be worth it!

Welcome to the forums and I look forward to more posts from you!
 
Thanks for the good replies,
i just had a look at CRKT knives and yes, they seem quite fair.

As far as cheap knives, i have alot of Jaguars...
i also have a few from Master Cutlery. It seems to me since coming here that Master Cutlery is one of the biggest clone makers (or distributors?)
Either way, i have a couple spyderco rips. Two larger being strong and halfway decent for work knives, and the smaller ones ended up in the trash. One of em actually broke on me and hurt quite alot.
Knowing first hand what improper craftsmanship results in makes me appreciate "quality" pieces, but price is still a factor.

Now since coming here, i've grown alot more interested in the actual steel, the finishes, the fit and function. I feel i have learned a good deal from you folks, including the fact that it's single ppl who get paid for designs, and not multi-million dollar corporations, which to me, in the scheme of things, does make a difference.

As far as designs themselves, i see alot of MFR's making extremely similar blades as one another which makes me wonder... exactly where these standards are drawn regarding whats to be considered original and property of someone, versus being more or less, public domain. Survival (Rambo type) knives are made by every factory, and then sold under a myriad of names, it would seem. In that example, the design seems generic.
From what i read here it seems that a company in China, makes as many knives as they want, and then sell them as they feel fit. Which might explain M-Tech and BOSS knives being identical, Master cutlery too for that matter. (they cloned Mike's Cheetah, or so it appears)
Now if i was a knife distributor and reselling to retail outlets,
i'd be recieving a catalog from the MFR right? What if i'm just a businessman and don't recognize these knives as *clones*, instead just as products from my supplier? I feel the place to lay blame isn't at the bottom, it's definitely those who produce these knives.

If going after the cheap labor means getting your design ripped off,
then either don't go there, or know it's the price you pay dealing with sweat shops and communists? Maybe i'm way off base here.
Still, it seems to me that designs just get spread around anyhow, even among the quality production companies. I mean, who isn't making neck knives right now?

Tho it's nothing spectacular, i'm saving right now for a Harley Davidson Flaming Legend Titanium III w/rainbow finish blade. While it may not be the best, i really like the blades finish and i think it would be a proud and comfortable EDC. Still looking for a reputable vendor on this, as that particular version isn't too common it seems(yet?)
 
Well, Gonzo, Here's how I look at it. I don't have any money either, and hardly ever get some to spend. And when I do have a LITTLE bit..say 12$, I don't go to the flea market and buy clones. Why? Well becuase I learned the value of a dollar, and I know how to save.

Its true, none of us would buy the real Mona Lisa due to the fact its worth millions of dollars. Rationalizing this, In my opinion, is a copout. You can save up for a nice knife. You can't save up for the Mona Lisa.

I just bought two nice Cold Steel knives that Im happy with. And some people may scoff at me, but I don't care. Im happy with them, and I like the design. And I can safely say, they aren't stolen designs.

And Im not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but in the case of clones, imitation is NOT flatery. They don't do it to pay tribute to the design. They do it to get money from people who don't know better.

My advice: Save your money and get a nice knife that wont break you. Cold Steel, Sog, Spydie, et al. You can find good knives for 70 bellow.

Good luck and welcome to the forums.
 
Originally posted by Gonzo_Beyondo
Either way, i have a couple spyderco rips............. One of em actually broke on me and hurt quite alot.
Click to expand...

Just one of the reasons I carry the real deal, you have to figure in how much your fingers are worth to you. I would rather put my money toward a kinfe than an ER bill.
 
Hiya Gonzo. I got one word for ya that will allow you to buy the more expensive knives you want:


EBAY


You're out of work, and have time and obviously a computer. You spend time at flea markets and sales and cruise the internet for good deals. OK, with me so far?

I bought a $175 Cargill last week and didn't blink an eye. It was paid for by selling the knives I found at the above mentioned places. As was the original Remington bullet tickler. And I can go on and on and on. I have a great collection, paid for out of my own knife sales. And I enjoy it. Very much. It's a game for me, a profitable one, and I am continually learning more about old knives, the more I handle them. As I say, you've got all you need to get started, except maybe a good reference book or two. I'd suggest BRLevines vol 4 for one of them. Take it with you ALWAYS and don't let the seller see you refer to it.

Works for me. Wish you luck

Shots
 
to get good knives on the cheap. An SAK Tinker set me back $20 at Target. A Buck 110, $30 at Wal-Mart. An Opinel #8, $12 and change at a local cutlery store. Spyderco Rescue (plain edge), $30 from a Forum Member (thanks Ryan). Camillus abalone celluloid trapper in 1095, $26 from AG Russell. JKM-1, a hand forged puuko inspired blade, $40 from Himalayan Imports (thanks Uncle). There are also custom makers here who sell hand made, quality knives for not much more than the price of a production piece. In some cases for less, because they are not (yet) famous names. I have no doubt some of them will be. Good blades, both goers and showers, can be had for a good price if you're patient. Welcome aboard.

Frank
 
Hey Guys...

First off ..

Nimravus....

Whoever has a problem with long posts, can either,, skip over it, browse through it, or whatever...

Theres no posting limit here at Bladeforums.com, as far as I know,, so if someone wants to give a little background history to their particular situation,, thats fine...

If he hadn't given the history of his situation,, we may be wondering why he's asking questions about cheaper or Knockoff knives.. Now that we know his situation,, we can give him a little bit better advice than you just did.

Theres nothing wrong with asking questions, especially when the fellow is a newbie, and may not know the ins and outs of the knife world as we know it...

As long as the post has knife content, and the person asking the questions isn't trolling the forum for flames,, then his questions are valid, and i think we should answer them as honestly as possible...

That shouldn't be a problem..

Now Gonzo..

First off,, Welcome to Bladeforums.com...

Secondly,, you buy what you can afford.. If you can't afford several hundred dollar knives, then stick to what you can afford...

There are however alternatives to knock offs and obvious rip offs... A nice collection to start could be something like Swiss Army knives.. They are fairly inexpensive,, and there are Hords of models to choose from....

Save a little money if you can and buy something for yourself that is really nice...

don't worry about it being a Shelf queen.. Theres alot of folks here that have many Shelf or Safe Queens...

Just enjoy the hobby and get your fix however and whenever you can...


Ohhh,,Crap..
hope that post wasn't too long !

ttyle

Eric....
 
Thanks again guys, many good replies, i appreciate them. :)

My areas of interest are mainly Autos, Tanto blades, Balis, and Folders/EDC types with radical styling. That said, Buck and SAK types don't do it for me. They're nice, just not my thing.

I have to agree with the many of you who commented about these forums, and net deals, etc. Frankly, before i started reading here i knew of very few places to get a good deal. Now i've not only seen a great variety of vendors, but also learned alot about each manufacturer. Overall, i can honestly say there will be more quality going into my collection from now on, and not at that high of a cost.

Despite the general hatred for "clone makers", i gotta tell ya that if it was'nt for those cheap flea market knives, i may have never began collecting, and i may have never made it here so as to learn finer points. Do you folks think that possibly alot of ppl new to the hobby climb the ranks from the knock offs? In a sense, that would be beneficial to the hobby. Allowing a variety of newbies into the hobby and then teaching them how and why to advance and refine their collection.
I see all of your points on this tho, and while i think theres another side to the clone argument, let me say this about cheapies: If any other new guys might be reading this, believe me...
once a knife's lock fails, and under the weight of your arm, that blade comes back on you, handle/fingers/steel <-- in a forced clamping "V" ... you'll Really think twice about alot of things before you do them. With mine, it was as simple as the fake zytel handle essentially flexing under pressure, and letting the cheesy lock right past. That is very common, and even with Jaguar metal folders.

Many of my cheap blades did'nt have working locks when they came... most notably... Master Cutlery. Now considering my story coulda been much worse, i got off lucky and still have all my digits but i think carefully before using a cheap blade now. I'm pretty sure that's a good thing anyways (lmao) regardless of the quality of your tool.
 
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