Hi res. Damascus?

S

stezann

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Apr 13, 2011
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Hi forgers!
I have noticed there are 2 flawours of damascus; one kind it is like as the layers were fringed, the other kind on the contrary is so tight and clean i call it hi resolution damascus.
The phenomenon is not related to the layer count, so i wonder what elements of the forging process help obtaining the hi-res kind?
Thanks for any insight on the subject

Stefano
 
Not sureb what you are saying. Can you post some photo examples.

A blind answer is:
There are different types and methods of making damascus. Mosaic and canister damascus has a different look than the stacked sheet type.
Also, twisting greatly changes the look and makes everything look tight and what may be called "hi res".

Take a 100 layer billet and cut it in half. Ladder pattern one piece, and make a tight twist billet of the other. make two identical hunters from them.
The twist billet will be tightly lined with angular lines and the pattern will go all the way to the edge.
The ladder billet will have waves going down the blade, with bars across them. As it approaches the edge, this will suddenly change to plain straight lines, creating what one may call a "fringe".
It is still the same layer count, but a very different look.
 
There are a lot of different processes used when making damascus as Stacy spoke of above. Multi bar blades where a number of different billets are forge welded together can make for some stunning visuals.
This 200 layer feather pattern blade was "Hot Blued" to make the pattern stand out. Google HHH custom knives for a look at some top notch damascus.

DSC02263.JPG
 
I have hard time posting picture on the forum, but i can try to express my question in a more clear way.
I know the techniques to produce the different patterns, ladder, twisted, multibar, ferry flips, canister etc... My question regards how do you forge differently to obtain a fuzzy looking billet like this (like a tv screen that doesn't properly catch the signal and has noise):
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1312012-Finishing-an-Alabama-Damascus-blank
....or a damascus blade tight and defined like the ones as Jason Knight, Kevin Cashen and many on this forum get? This is independent from the desired pattern, let's say a simple twist as a baseline.

I wonder if that cleanliness is just the trademark of a correct welding heat, if it is related also to the amount of force exerted in the welding, or if it's an outcome of the subsequent forging heat ranges.
I don't forge damascus, but forging monosteels i'm concerned introducing that "fuzziness" factor - even if it is invisible since i use only one steel - nevertheless i would like learn to treat my steel like it were a "clean damascus" under the hammer.
Anyway i have enjoied a lot of damascus tutorials but only describing the patterns, seldom underlining the basics to obtain quality steel billets, and i find it would be an interesting discussion.
 
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I'm just going to throw a guess that the "fuzzy" stuff, like in the Alabama Damascus you linked is 4 layers. (From their site: Material = (4) layers 5160, (3) layers 203E, (3) layers 52100, (3) layers 15N20 folded 5 times for 416 layer damascus), which is the way they make their billets. I think the cleaner stuff is probably just two steels like 1084 and 15N20 (popular combination).
 
I think part of the difference is in how it's welded. One is probably roughly ground or simply flattened on the anvil and folded, the other is probably ground finer before welding, also time spent at welding heat and etching times and strengths and alloys play a part.
 
I think it has a lot to do with the temperature the steel is welded at, too. The higher the temperature, the 'fuzzier' the layers appear.
 
How you etch and how deep you etch makes a difference in how your Damascus appears too..A really deep hard etch takes on a very clear "topographical" look and can really stand out in a lower layer count. take a say 120 layer billet, etch it for about an hour then blue the steel. clean the blue off the high spots with 2000 grit paper and the contrast is striking.
 
Thank you guys, i think the preparation of the surfaces before the weld is a valid theory i didn't think about. Also the other explanations you gave make sense to me.
It would be nice if someone who makes very clean damascus would also chime in and share his thoughts :)
 
One variable may be what "angle" you are looking at. With stuff like feather, basket weave or tiled W's, you are looking at the layers straight on edge. With random, ladder, plain twist, etc. you have cut across them. To me, the dark layers are the ones that can look more "fuzzy"
 
By looking at the "fuzziness" my impression is that a slip of the layers had caused shearing, hence the fuzzines; or it could be a rough finish on the mating surfaces of the stack that transferred its impression on the layers edge in the final product.
Sometimes the rough grind is made on purpose to let the flux escape during the weld, but those channels show themselves between the layers giving the fuzzy look.
 
In many cases the "fuzz" is a thin layer of pure nickel added between the stacks. Once forged out it makes a light colored transition between the layers.
 
Alabama Damascus, whose steel is pictured in the link you posted, folds their steel hot and welds it without grinding in between, as far as I've seen from a vid of them working. They just fold it on a bigass Nazel and weld it over and over. Not sure if they brush it or blast it a bit with water by wet forging before folding.
 
Salem is right, they weld it old skool. Hot cut and stack, welded under a big beautiful beast of a hammer.
 
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