hidden tabg question

C

ChuckTilbury

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Oct 26, 2010
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I am working on the design for my second knife. It will have a 1" wide x 4 1/2" long drop point blade made from O1 tool. Stock removal. I am thinking of making it a hidden tang with a stacked leather handle. I am wondering how to attach the stick to the blade. I want to use a mild steel 1/4" rod so I can thread the end. I plan to cut a slot in the blade part for it to seat in. I could try to stick weld it, but I would prefer to braze it, since that will probably make a neater job of it. I do not really have the stuff I need to forge weld it. (I think) I would love to hear some thoughts on the matter.

Thanks!
Chuck Tilbury

edit: the title should be "hidden tang question".
 
Last edited:
Brazing will be fine, could be tough to stick weld unless your pretty good at welding small pieces. grind two flats on the rod and cut your slot for a tight fit and it should work fine. I wrap the blade in a wet cloth to protect the HT.
 
There is usually no need to attach a "stick" i.e. the tang, to the blade.

The blade and tang are usually one continuous piece of steel, carved from whatever flat stock you are using. (except maybe for Damascus steel) It should be no problem threading annealed high carbon steel prior to heat treatment.

LonePine
AKA Paul Meske
 
I am not sure what state the piece of metal I plan to use is currently in. I can drill a hole in it or mill it in the milling machine. It is a 1/8" flat that I bought at a machine shop supply and I have not done anything to it. Should I try to anneal it?

So here is a question: If I heat it to critical (checking with a magnet) and then put it in dry vermiculite, would that anneal it well enough?

I was planning to make this blade without heating except to harden and temper it.
 
If you can drill it and mill it my guess would be that it is not hardened. What I know about metallurgy could fit in a thimble. If you can work the steel as it is now I wouldn't mess with it. Attempting to anneal it further could backfire for you. Ask the guy you bought it from.

Read the sticky titled Working the Three Steel Types at http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=673173. There is a LOT of information in there that could help you.

Why not try threading a corner of it that won't be used to see if it's soft enough to work it.

Your O1 steel is 1/8" thick (I use that a lot) and 1 inch wide. How long is it?

I like the look of stacked leather handles and some day will attempt one myself.

LonePine
AKA Paul Meske
 
The piece of steel I bought was 1/8" x 1 1/2" x 18". I got it at Dixie Tool Crib here in Austin. It was branded "Starrett". I looked it up in the catalog (which I did not have at the time) and it says that the steel is "fully spheroidized annealed".

I suppose that I could try to grind the end of the tang round and just thread the edges. I would like the have the threads no smaller than #10x24. 1/4"x20 would be better.

The last one I did had a tang that was a part of the blade, and I pressed the butt plate on to it. It worked out pretty well, but it does not give me the control that I want to have when assembling the knife.
 
Your steel is about as soft as you can expect.

I wish someone with more hidden tang experience would jump in here. I’m talking as if I know soooo much about this, which I really don’t. Do you have a drawing of the blade with the tang that you could post? I’m having a hard time visualizing where you want to weld the tang to the blade. The picture below is a kit knife from Texas Knife supply. It shows how the tang and blade have been cut from the same piece of flat stock and the tang goes a couple of inches before a threaded rod is welded on.

BladedeluxSkinnerTxKfSpy.jpg


What I’m trying to say (without any real personal experience to back it up) is that it seems to me that welding a tang straight to the blade rather than have it extend out as part of the blade, and as seen in the photo, could be problematic. If it is done before heat-treating how will the weld react to the extremes of heat and cold it will be subjected to by the process? If it is welded on AFTER heat-treating then there is the risk of compromising the entire heat treatment process. In both cases you have a weld joint that may or may not break depending upon the skill of the welder. In both cases I would think the welding process could develop internal stresses that may, or may not, affect the knife.

Keeping the weld point further away from where the tang joins the blade seems like a reasonable way of minimizing my imagined catastrophes.

Here is another picture of a kit knife, again from Texas Knife Supply, similar to what you plan to make. Note how they are attaching a threaded rod to the tang without welding.

Bladeqclassichuntingcc42.jpg


Check out this thread. It is similar to your situation

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375172&highlight=bolt+to+hidden+tang

I did a search using the words “hidden tang” and a there are all sorts of threads with info that might help. These are just a few of them. There are more.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=712498&highlight=hidden+tang

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=447473&highlight=bolt+to+hidden+tang

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=734744&highlight=hidden+tang

LonePine
AKA Paul Meske
 
Lonepine,

Nice links! Thank you. The second image is about what I have in mind. The only real difference is that there is a slight angle between the handle and the blade. Also, I was planning to leave as much metal near the choil as possible, making the blade part of the tang slope inward, instead of making it with straight edges. I only need about 1/2" of thread on the end.

I think I am going to go with brazing after the temper. I will put the blade in the vice with a big chunk of AL to absorb the heat on both sides. I know from doing other things that it will be OK. Then when I assemble the whole thing, I will use slow-cure epoxy to lock it all together.

I will try to make some clean drawings instead of my rough sketch and post it.

Cheers!
-=chuck=-
 
OK Chuck, I think I'm understanding you and it seems like you're on track.
Good luck, have fun.

LonePine
AKA Paul Meske
 
Just chuck your tang in a vise, and weld away. The vise acts as a heat sink, and keeps the temper of the blade.
 
Yeah brazing with brass is not as hot as welding and its a chemical bond rather than mechanical, I'm a newb to knife making but I tested it out and it dont break at the weld ever, if I bend the 1/4 bolt I'm using 3/4 times at 45 degree angle back and forth it will break about 1/4 to 1/2 inch from braised area on bolt side. When making a stacked leather handle I'd assume that your hardened tang needs to extend through almost whole length of handle like in the photo no 2, because leather needs rigid support otherwise your handle might bend under stress. Hope this helps
 
Chuck I have sent you a E-mail, feel free to contact me with other questions or for clarafication.

Jim
 
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