Hidden Tang Lengths and hardness and shoulder widths?

Brian Avila

Brian Avila

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Jan 2, 2011
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The other day I saw a quick comment on Facebook that talked about a hidden tang not being long enough, the comment was from a well established ABS smith, but I forgot to comment and ask details. The comment was not on anything that I had posted so I lost track of it.

So my question is this: when looking at a handle, and most of mine are somewhere just over 5" in length (5-5.25"), what should I be thinking about when designing a stick tang when it comes to length in the handle? Most of the knives that I want to make that are hidden tangs have contoured handles.

And I know knife shoulders should be wide, but what is a good measurement from the outside of the shoulder to the tang (1/8")?

-Brian-

(Questions about tang hardness was added to post #11)
 
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I would say to get as much tang in the handle as your abilities and equipment allow.
Keep in mind, hidden tangs have been used in swords for battle for many hundreds of years.
It's not so much the length of the tang, but how it is assembled which brings the entire handle area into one integral unit.
As far as width, I will say I mill my guard shoulders in, and go the depth of an 1/8" end mill.

This cat can get skinned many different ways.
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
I would say to get as much tang in the handle as your abilities and equipment allow.
Click to expand...

Indeed... more steel is more stronger :)

1/8" shoulders are plenty for a guard to seat against securely. Of course they should be radiused, not cut at a 90-degree angle.
 
I agree with the radius.

Karl - do you soften your tang and shoulders after you heat treat and then use your mill to cut the shoulders?
 
I agree! :) The more tang you can stuff in the handle, the better. :thumbup:




It makes me cringe when I see pics of guys making hidden tangs that look like a #2 pencil. :eek: ;)


A lot of guys will start out making really narrow tangs because they are worried about making the guard slot. I did!!! :foot:


Ironically though, that just makes things harder, IMHO. If you have a guard slot that only needs to be 1/4" wide--- you'll only be able to get needle files in there. I pretty much hate needle files. They're dainty and stuff.

If you have a guard slot that needs to be 3/4"+ wide, then you have plenty of room to use 6" files (having "safe sides and/or edges" on your guard fitting files is a huge plus).

My guard shoulders keep getting smaller and smaller (***note*** when I say "guard shoulders" I'm talking about the immediate step-down from ricasso width to tang width). On that big bowie I just posted the other day, the shoulders barely went in past the rounded spine and choil... right around 0.075.

It's pretty common for a guy to get hung up on the idea of making the sides of their guard slot precise... yet they forget that you aren't just mating the sides of the slot to the sides of the tang, you're also mating the face of the guard to the guard shoulders. You could have a PERFECT guard slot, but if your guard shoulders are wide and wonky, the guard will not fit up to the blade as tight and clean as possible.


IMHO, having quality made handle broaches helps immensely as well... as they make it much faster and easier to "excavate" the tang hole, with accuracy to boot. :thumbup:

As for length, strength, etc... Karl's approach is certainly the strongest method I know of. :thumbup:

Many of mine are blind holes (simply meaning they don't exit the end of the handle) and I always try to get pretty close to the end of the handle with the tang. IME, that has more benefit with balancing things out than anything. But to answer your question specifically, in a 5 - 5.5" long handle, I typically will have a 4 - 4.75" long tang.



I'm curious about the fb post that was the impetus for you asking this Brian. I never go on fb anymore, so I didn't see the post, and doubt I could even figure out how to find it if I did. :o
 
I will preface this by saying I am a novice. One question that I have asked myself is, "How difficult will it be to fit the handle?" In my mind, the easiest would be a 1/4" welded rod. The handle would be fitted by drilling a 1/4" hole then shaping the hole to fit the shoulders to your guard or bolster and a small amount of shaping for the pommel or nut at the end. A square or rectangular tang would require more material removal to get a good fit.
 
Bo T said:
I will preface this by saying I am a novice. One question that I have asked myself is, "How difficult will it be to fit the handle?" In my mind, the easiest would be a 1/4" welded rod. The handle would be fitted by drilling a 1/4" hole then shaping the hole to fit the shoulders to your guard or bolster and a small amount of shaping for the pommel or nut at the end. A square or rectangular tang would require more material removal to get a good fit.
Click to expand...

Easiest? Yes.

Unfortunately though, about as poor in quality and strength as you could get.
 
Shaping the rectangular slot isn't as hard as you think. The biggest part of the challenge is drilling the holes (plural) deep enough without some specialized gear. After that, it's just a question of connecting the holes and using files or broaches to square them up.
 
NickWheeler said:
Easiest? Yes.

Unfortunately though, about as poor in quality and strength as you could get.
Click to expand...

I agree. But conceptually, I believe it is important to start somewhere and work your way foreward. So the question then becomes, is a uniform rectangular tang, over most of the length, a good option? A coping saw could be used to remove a lot of the material after drilling an appropriate hole.
 
Well it sounds like I am just an inch too short.

Nick - the comment was from Jason Knight. I got side track and lost the thread so I didn't get to ask.

I did track down the guy he made the comment to though and he said 4" tang to a 5" handle. So sounds like that is what I am shooting for.

That leads me to this. What do you have to worry about when you are doing contoured handles and the tang? Just draw it out and hope you don't take to much off?

I have also talked to Micheal Vagnino about softening tangs with a torch and what it does to tang and shoulder area (Nick Wheeler does this in big how to thread). I was curious about what your guys thoughts about if softer tang and shoulder area helps with "performance"? If it was hard that shoulder junction would be where it breaks, but if it is softer, like what Nick does it would be more likely to bend there and not break.

Thank the the input guys.
 
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Added question in post #11 and changed thread title to reflect added question ( allows for better searching )
 
Here's my opinion on it.
I've got knives in all arenas of knife use around the world.
None have come back broken. At any place along the knife.
With one exception:
In all my years of knife making I've only had one come back with a broken tip, and that was a stainless blade, and the guy broke the tip off prying up ceramic tile. :eek:

I don't think the failure of a knife - whether it be blade, guard shoulders or tang - is a matter of being hard or soft.
I feel it's a matter of proper heat treatment, including grain reduction, hardening and tempering, and geometry.

I learned a rule - properly hardened and tempered MARTENSITE is far stronger than unhardened pearlite.

I want as much of my knife hardened and tempered as possible.
If I have to drill and tap and thread, I treat the knife accordingly to accommodate these procedures when the process dictates. That's why I mill my guard shoulders prior to heat treating. That area will more than likely be hard for the rest of it's life.

And keep in mind that the strength of the knife is not totally dictated by the shoulders, or the tang.
The guard and handle are part of the equation.
That's why I mentioned earlier about long length swords having hidden stick tangs.
Those wrapped and beautifully done handles ain't just pretty! The tang incorporates all of the components of handle as well for strength and transference of stress.

When you attempt to flex or 'bend' a knife by the handle, consider that the handle material - if in fact it is properly affixed to the assembly - must compress along one side.

I'm gonna cut this short - I have a shit load of work to do.
Put succinctly, if a tang is going to fail, it should first be necessary to completely destroy the handle and guard.


TheWeatherman said:
I was curious about what your guys thoughts about if softer tang and shoulder area helps with "performance"?
Click to expand...
 
As usual, Mr. Andersen nailed it in every sentence he just typed. I've been fortunate enough to meet Karl and pick his brain face-to-face; he does not goof around with these topics.

Thank you, sir :thumbup: We would all be a lot worse off without makers/smiths like you, that have not simply taken "myths and old wive's tales" as "gospel", but have actually researched and shown how/what/why these things happen.
 
Karl - I do appreciate you taking the time to post.

So if you were to make a hidden tang, that only held with a pin, you would cut the shoulders first and drill the hole for the pin before heat treat?
 
Sorry for the delay on this. I've been working all day.
I would definitely mill the shoulder in prior to hardening.
I would probably not go so far as to pre-drill the tang. Just too much forethought on that one.
I would quench to harden right from the oven, but would probably leave some of the tang out of the quench.
Still, most steels will air harden enough to kill a drill bit.
But, I have done all grain reduction that I can in prior steps, so the steel is in as good a condition as it can be.
If I can't drill the tang, I will suspend the blade in a tube of water. I use a steel tail pipe cut-off from the muffler shop with a plate welded to one end. Fill it with water and suspend the blade in it.
Turn the lights off in the shop.
In the location I want to drill the hole, I locally heat it up with the A/O torch until I can just see a dull red in the dark room and heat no further. That's about 900-950 degrees.
Let it cool.
Do it again.
Do it again.
Do it again.
5-6 times.
Make certain not to heat it high enough to create austenite or it will air harden and you'll have to start all over again.
After you've done it a handful of times, try, gently, to drill it.
If you can't - heat it slightly a few more times.
Drill it.

TheWeatherman said:
Karl - I do appreciate you taking the time to post.

So if you were to make a hidden tang, that only held with a pin, you would cut the shoulders first and drill the hole for the pin before heat treat?
Click to expand...
 
Karl - thanks for that.

When you cut your shoulders before heat treat. What do you do to clean everything up afterwards so that the shoulders meet up to the guard nicely?
 
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