Hideaway knife - push dagger or not?

Blue Sky

Blue Sky

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Jun 16, 2002
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I've been following some recent discussions of the Hideaway and they are very interesting. Unfortunately they look a lot like push daggers, which I'm pretty sure are are illegal in my state (NY). Does anyone know for sure how they are classified? A forum search turns up comments both ways but I find nothing definite.
 
I have yet to find a clear definition of a push dagger, so I couldn't answer your question. I do love my HideAway though! :D

I've always figured it is something that should never be seen until it is needed. Stay out of trouble and no one will ever know you have it.
 
I have been wondering the same thing. It may also fall under knuckles. Push daggers have a handle that fills the hand. Although this knife doesn't, I can see why it would be classified a push dagger/knuckles. The ring goes over two fingers which may classify it as knuckles. The Strider HAK's blade projects forward much like that of a PD.The straight HAK's blade is at an angle and the blade looks more sheeple friendly. It all depends on what the officer/court percieves it as. JMHO YMMV.

Anyone know for sure? I'd buy one but this is what's keeping me.
 
Nobody sat down and classified them in NY I'm sure. They'll just zap you without warning :(

But I did read they call them push daggers in Germany. Consequently Frontsight makes a Hideaway that comes off the grip at a different angle, that qualifies as legal there. I think you should write to her to find out.

There is a solution! :)

((Edit: I just emailed her to let her know about the question here.))
 
Most jurisdictions that would make push daggers illegal, proabably also use the generic "dirks and daggers" restrictions. In this case, a hideway would be illegal, proabably a felony.

In some areas, knives for use are OK, but knives as weapons are not. It may be difficult to claim that some if not all of the hideways are not conceived, built and carried as weapons of self defense. In this case you'd again probably be facing felony charges.

If concealed, and who wouldn't conceal a "hideaway", then in some jurisdictions you could add a second felony charge.

Don't think that just because you may look the part of the innocent citizen, that the po-lice won't enforce the law. So hide that hideway were it can't be seen and don't give them probable cause.
 
My DA told me that daggers are at right angles blade to handle. Someone else (not a lawyer but someone who talked to one) said it wouldn't qualify as a knuckle because the handle is not for hitting. However, that's just one DA and one person's interp. Of course, I am not a lawyer, and disclaim this as being legal advice. Any interp is possible. My DA might be more inclined to tell me that because we are close and he knows this knife project is important to me. He's also told me which laws to disregard because of very low risk I'd ever be prosecuted for them in a defensive situation. But I'm a femme type so that's a big context diff.

Esav you are correct in that I originally designed the blade-inline-version (HideAway Sting and Ankle Claw) for Germans. However the ironic thing is that more Americans and Canadians are ordering it then Germans because of fma-ish reasons I guess. I've sent a lot of the regular ones to Germany, and never had one held up at customs.

If you're concerned about getting an angled bladed knife, but still want positive retention and the hands-free attribute, you could get the HideAway Sting and Ankle Claw. This version also good for concealing in very narrow places.

I think you should use whatever edge you feel confident with based on experimentation and testing under stress and thinking about different situations you could be in.

Here are the HideAways that Esav was referring to:


HideAway Sting and Ankle claw by Mick Strider:


striderankleclaw_resize.jpg



strider-ankleclaw-beak_resize.jpg



strider mccawsting_resize.jpg



MrFB04's Sting by Ken Brock:

sting w chisco band close_resize.jpg



sting w chisco band_resize.jpg



TonyCCW's Sting by Mickey Yurco:

tonyCCW Yurco Sting_resize.jpg



2tone HideAway Sting_resize.jpg


FrontSight
 
Blue Sky said:
Unfortunately they look a lot like push daggers, which I'm pretty sure are are illegal in my state (NY).
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Not to push this off topic, but where did you read push daggers are illegal in NYS? Double edges daggers, yes; but single edge push daggers are legal as far as I know.
 
brownshoe said:
If concealed, and who wouldn't conceal a "hideaway", then in some jurisdictions you could add a second felony charge.
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Ironically, the reason I chose the HAK as my EDC in NYC is because NYC has a "must carried concealed" rule for edge carry. Plus the single edge under 2" blade puts me well inside legal boundaries. My $0.02.
 
Tonyccw, So, its legal to carry a concealed dagger in NYC if its under 2"? Is that because NYC doesn't classify single edge fixed blades as a dagger, even if its intended use is as a weapon?
 
brownshoe said:
Tonyccw, So, its legal to carry a concealed dagger in NYC if its under 2"? Is that because NYC doesn't classify single edge fixed blades as a dagger
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NYC classifies a dagger as a blade with two sharpened edges. The HAK only has one sharpened edge, therefore I'm not carrying a "dagger".

I think the confusion is in the use of the word "dagger" in the term "push dagger" vs the legal definition of what constitutes a dagger.
brownshoe said:
..even if its intended use is as a weapon?
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I have no intentions of using my HAK's as weapons. That would be against the law in NYC. What I can legally carry is a HAK, or any other knife, with a blade length under 4", concealed.
 
Thanks for all the input, everyone. Tonyccw: I believe the question of push dagger legality has come up in some older threads here (in discussions about Cold Steel Safekeepers IIRC) and consensus was that they were not allowed in NY. Not definitive I know, but enough to give one pause. I have recently come across this link here:

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=82&a=68

which contains this:

5-b. "Metal knuckle knife" means a weapon that, when closed, cannot function as a set of metal knuckles, nor as a knife and when open, can function as both a set of metal knuckles as well as a knife. (italics mine)

Now, a Hideaway obviously can't open and close but otherwise sounds a lot like the second part of this definition. It wouldn't be hard, I think, to argue that it is always open and at least possible to use it as "metal knuckles". I can't find anything like this that defines "dagger" or "push dagger" but I'm still looking.
 
Blue Sky said:
Now, a Hideaway obviously can't open and close but otherwise sounds a lot like the second part of this definition. It wouldn't be hard, I think, to argue that it is always open and at least possible to use it as "metal knuckles".
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By your interpertation, all ring knives, kerambits, La Griffe's, and even the CS Trout knife can be classified as "knuckle knives". From historical perspective, the "knuckle knives" were specifically referring to the old WWI style Trench Knuckle knives. I'll ask my attorney, but I'm more inclined to accept what FS said about the retention ring not being used for hitting.

As for the push dagger, I have no issue with erring on the side of caution, but until a legal definition is established, I'll stick with my attorney's advise.
 
Tonyccw: I appreciate your interest in this thread. I am no expert on this question and am glad someone is able and willing to seek a more authoritive viewpoint. And I'll add my interpretation of 5-b was taken with an intentional "devil's advocate" mindset and I agree it is a bit of a stretch.
 
I wonder if the Courts would interpret a pair of common Metal Scissors as a Knuckle Knife.They can be used as a stabbing weapon, and, they have Metal rings.
Mickey
 
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