high(er) edge retention slipjoint/lockback

znode

znode

Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
413
I've been EDCing my new LM wave for about a month now, but I have been quite fed up with the edge retention of the blade, which I believe to be 420HC.

I live in academic California, so tacticals/Spydercos would have a high freakout factor which makes me hesitate when pulling them out. As such, I'm looking for a classical-looking knife, either slipjoint or lockback, with high edge retention. My budget is about $40, so obviously I'm not expecting ZDP performance; as long as it's noticably better than Leatherman-heat-treated 420HC (:() would be fine by me. Small blade length is no problem, since usually going smaller would make even good steels fit the budget.

Knives I've looked at:

  • Case, with their chrome vanadium (50100-B/Carbon V) blades.
  • EKA from Ragnar's, with 12C27 blades
  • Victorinox

Here I assume Case and Victorinox would have similar blade profiles (tiny flat grind), and that Victorinox runs their steel very soft (56 or so), and so Case would have the edge. I've never touched an EKA, so I don't know how thin they grind their Scandi's, but they seem to run their 12C27 pretty hard.

Which of those would have the best edge retention? Any other suggestions?
 
Oh, and I excluded the venerable Buck 110 and Opinels, reasons being:

- Buck 110 is still a 420HC knife. I know Buck/Bos heat-treated knives are by no means ordinary, but unless I'm wrong, a cheap Case should still perform better.
- I don't know what's up with my Opinels refusing to open. I think it's the humidity, but San Diego is not nearly as humid as say, Georgia. I got two #8 Opinels from Ragnar's a while back. When I received them, they opened fine unassisted. One of them I soaked the pivot with mineral oil, the other I put in my drawer. They BOTH refused to open a week later unless I leveraged against a table. This has quite turned me off to Opinels, though I will definitely entertain that it was my fault if someone point out what was wrong.
 
There are slipjoints in ATS-34, like the Schatt & Morgan file and wire series, but they are around $80.

Queen's D2 holds an edge for quite a long time, but the factory edge is usually quite bad. If you're going to buy a Queen, try to do it somewhere where you can personally inspect the edge. I bought 2 Queen knives on-line and both came blunt as a butter knife, they needed a lot of grinding out of the box (not sharpening, actual grinding). There are lots of models close to your $40 budget.

Re: Opinels. Sometime the wood swells and they are hard to open. It's easy to fix, just sand the handle and give it a few coats of lineseed oil. It only takes a few minutes and solves the problem.
 
Have you looked at the spiderco byrd knives yet? For under $30 they are pretty good quality, and the 8cr13MoV metal is on par with aus 8 according to spyderco. They should be small enough to not make people call cops on you for peeling an apple in public.
 
Znode.

Find a Kershaw Leek that has a born on date of Jul 07. It'll have the new sandvik steel for the blade, not the old 440a. It's edge retention should be better and it'll be sheeple friendly if you don't snap it in front of them. Open it w/ two hands when in sheeple land.
 
znode said:
I live in academic California...
Click to expand...

Berkley?

Anyways, I would say go with Case. I've always liked them, but haven't had one of there knives in a while. I just bought one for my brother though for his birthday, and I know exactly what I'm putting on my christmas wish list this year. I particularly like the small texas jack with amber bone handles and it's in CV. It's 31/2 in so it's not to large to not be comfortable in a pocket, but it still has a decent sized blade. It's either that or a medium stockman, but I don't like how the sheepsfoot blade sticks out so much.

FWIW, I carry a LM Wave every day, but it's mostly for the other tools it offers, I usually carry some kind of pocket knife in my pocket along with the Wave. I have used the knife on the Wave a couple of times, when I didn't have another knife, or it was convenient or whatever, and I agree that it does not hold an edge for very long at all.

I think you would be really happy with the case, and you should be able to get one at or below your budget. The texas Jack I bought my brother was 38.99 here: http://caseknifeoutlet.com/knifedetail.cfm?id=1308
 
RNR: Are all the new leeks going to have the new sandvik steel starting this year? If that's true, I wish I would have known before I bought my wifes leek. Oh, well, she don't use it too hard anyways.
 
The Byrd knives have great edge-holding, I'd consider a Meadowlark or Robin in your case.

The Spyderco Native at Walmart isn't terribly large and it's S30V at 40$. If it's small enough for you it'd be a good option.

There are MANY carbon steel slipjoints, and as mentioned Queen makes them in D2.

The 440 and 420 Buck's do hold an edge pretty well. The heat treat on these knives has been very good in my experience.

Really though, is it too much trouble to just carry some type of sharpening device with you? I carry a few sheets of 1200 grit sandpaper cut to credit card size in my wallet and it works great for touch-ups. If I'm at work or a friends house and I'm using a knife that's dull, I'll often just steel it on the most convenient piece of metal around then give it some passes on the sandpaper. All you really need to do unless an edge needs re-ground.
 
when its all said and done the opinel will blow most knifes away in the cutting department.nothing sexy just good old carbon steel, easy to sharpen, easy on the eyes of the sheepel of calif.they just work. as to the sticking problem mine did that switzerland has got a lot of water both in the air (running around 90" now) and in general i thru a bit of oil on the pivot and worked it open and closed for a hour and now its fine.its only going to set you back 10 to 15 bucks too
 
Case has a series of knives with 154CM blades. I have two, a stockman and a barlow. Both have been outstanding.
 
znode said:
I've been EDCing my new LM wave for about a month now, but I have been quite fed up with the edge retention of the blade, which I believe to be 420HC.
Click to expand...

This could simply be a matter of improper edge angle/grit. What do you normally cut and how do you normally sharpen?

-Cliff
 
If you like carrying your wave,you should look at the leatherman charge instead. It comes with 154 cm steel. Otherwise as they say on this forum:+1 victorinox,+1EKA
 
stingray4540 said:
Berkley?
Click to expand...
San Diego.
jzmtl said:
Have you looked at the spiderco byrd knives yet?
Click to expand...
Definitely, but the Spyderco shape is at the least nontraditional. Here I'm basically preparing for the worst in the urban jungle - the possibility that I might have to use it in front of people in power that I have never met before. Basically, I should not hesitate a bit to use it, and traditional-looking knives meet that criteria.
rnr said:
Find a Kershaw Leek
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I don't really like AOs, but that is a strong choice.
hardheart said:
[AG Russell Titanium Lockback]
Click to expand...
I saw it too, and it would be perfect if the handle wasn't so thin, smooth, and small. It seems to be more suited for a wallet knife than an EDC.
the-swexan said:
[Opinels] in general i thru a bit of oil on the pivot and worked it open and closed for a hour and now its fine.
Click to expand...
Which I did, but didn't seem to have worked.
Cliff Stamp said:
This could simply be a matter of improper edge angle/grit. What do you normally cut and how do you normally sharpen?
Click to expand...
I freehand it on a set of Lansky stones, following the factory angle of about 18 degrees, the final grit is 2000. I use it for cardboard and paper. With paper, it seems to stop pushcutting after 2 cuts (1 ft) or so (I have to start "sawing", though not intensively). I don't remember having that problem with AUS 8 knives I tried. I can't really say if it's a burr ("microscopic" burrs? I really need to get into stropping), or if I screwed up the bevels (both are very slightly convex, because I can't hold a perfect angle, but I didn't think that mattered too much), or if it's the expected performance of 420HC.
 
Your thread caught my eye as I am currently shopping for a good knife with the highest possible edge retention. I have an Endura 4 with zdp-189 but I haven't put it through sustained heavy use to know what kind of edge it will hold. I do however have a lot of nylon mule tape around at work, and it is murder on my blade. With that said, I noticed marked improvement on the mule tape after I did a little stropping on an edge sharpened with an ex-coarse grit DMT stone.

The zdp steel is touted as having the highest edge retention, but I did want to compare it to a straight up carbon steel knife, so I started a thread just a couple of weeks ago to get some suggestions. Here is a link to it if you havn't already read it.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=490963

Incidentally, there is a Leek in ZDP and Spyderco offered a smaller Delica and Calypso Jr. I believe also in ZDP.
 
queenopen.jpg


You can get these online for about $55-60+shipping. Mine had a pretty good edge on it. Disclaimer: this one knife is my only experience with Queen brand.
 
Although I'm jumping into the fray rather late, I think the perfect marriage between knife design and blade material should be approached with a certain amount of care. It's true that 420HC isn't the best for edge retention, but you may not want to jump from the lower ladder rungs to the top. There are many steels in between and none of them is perfect in everything.

You didn't mention what kind of cutting jobs are causing your knife to lose its edge, but not caring how small your blade length is, you would do well to scrounge around eBay for any type of Spyderco and its lower priced Byrd line. If nothing pops up in your price range, see if you can grab a medium Cold Steel Voyager. The latter is available in plain blade, serrated, or half and half. I'm also a big fan of the CRKT line, providing the steel is at least AUS8. A year or so ago I picked up one of CRKT's little titanium handled knives. It's very small and has the company's Lake and Walker Knife Safety, which is an added precaution in keeping the blade from coming back on your fingers. I found a new one on eBay for $40.

Regarding steel, I'd recommend something in the AUS8 area (only because of co$t considerations). The VG-1 used by Cold Steel is about the same if not a little better. I've used AUS8 more than any other steel and have found it to be more than adequate. Carbon blades are outstanding, especially if coated. Being in a muggy area, you would have to take good care of it, though.

Before I found religion, I used Victorinox knives and didn't much care for them. They're not very good for mega-cutting, at least that was my experience with two of them. The Case knives I've used began corroding despite my best efforts, but they didn't have the miracle lubs they do today. Another reason that I won't use Case knives is because of that company's hostile stand against modern locking knives. According to a recent article:

...Tom Arrowsmith, chief executive of W.R. Case, accuses competitors of "weaponizing" the pocketknife and says it's an approach his company won't take. He does concede, though, that customer demand has prompted his company, a 117-year-old maker of pretty penknives, to offer a line of one-hand-opening knives with tactical features.

When they begin banning so-called "tactical knives," Case will become a thorn in the side of knife owners.

Since you mentioned lockbacks, those are my favorite types of knives. Very reliable once you test them.

Finally, you mentioned "the possibility that I might have to use it in front of people in power that I have never met before." I worked in my last job in an office full of women. Let me warn you now that some people view any type of knife with considerable hostility. It's not that those gals didn't know me. They did. But when I tried to do one of them a favor in opening a large taped package with a small throwaway Chinese linerlock, one of them turned me in to the thought police. Yes, it was legal, my boss said. Yes, there was nothing in the regs even discouraging the carrying of it. But...BUT...she said, please don't carry it here. I almost asked if I should keep it in my car with my .357 revolver, but discretion is the better part of valor, eh? Your best bet is to never let anyone see your knife, regardless of how innocuous you think it might be. (By the way, I stopped carrying it as requested, and began carrying my ten dollar Smith & Wesson Extreme Ops with aluminum body. Much maligned, that knife has nevertheless grown on me and is usually my backup when I go on walks.)

Best of luck, and do post what you decide.

316413.jpg


Cold Steel Voyager is a decent, dependable knife with a
blade length of almost three inches. Price: $40+-
 
znode said:
I freehand it on a set of Lansky stones, following the factory angle of about 18 degrees, the final grit is 2000. I use it for cardboard and paper. With paper, it seems to stop pushcutting after 2 cuts (1 ft) or so (I have to start "sawing", though not intensively).
Click to expand...

This is not the expected performance of that steel. If you have some time you might want to check out the following review and see the performance of an AUS-4A blade optomized for cardboard cutting :

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/m16_zytel.html

In short, I would suggest you drastically reduce the angle and lower the grit and really optomize burr removal. Unfortunately on that class of steels they are often significantly underhardened and very difficult to form crisp edges.

-Cliff
 
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