High Performance Steel

Doug Mondt · Mar 27, 2001

I'm new around here so maybe you all have been down this road, but here goes anyway.

I just read the posting about the ATS-34 staining and it got me to thinking about steel again. I have been making knifes at a rate of about 30 per year since 1997. I started out with 440C and ATS-34 like most.

Through my chemistry background I began to search out better steel alloys and through some divine intervention I was able to get hooked up with some higher grade steel, Some call them "super alloys". Specicially Cruwear, CPM 3V, CPM 10V, S60V, and S90V.

Some think I am a nut for grinding these alloys, any of which will cut rings around the popular stainless steels. I still use 440C and ATS-34 but in limited quantities now.

As a custom maker I feel I must seek the absolute highest performance out of my blades. Stainless qualities aside, Anyone who has ever used a CPM 10V blade and then a good ATS-34 blade can attest to the DRAMATIC performance difference.

Here's my question, is this the direction other makers are going as well?

Should I step back into the "popular" stainless steel mode and ignore what I know to be superior quality steel?

Just looking for some other opinions in this area.

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Mondt Custom Knives
For the Word of God is...sharper than any two edged sword.

Samurai6 · Mar 27, 2001

In a word, no. For small knives, folders and hunters, S90V positively rocks, and Stellite and Talonite are pretty cool too.

Maybe still hard to beat the old standards like 5160 or A-2 for big blades though.

allenC · Mar 27, 2001

It depends on who you're targeting for sales.
If you're selling to those who only buy the best and are willing to pay top-dollar, then stick with the superior steels.
But if you're selling to those of modest economic means, or to young people who are just learning about knives, then you might want to aim lower.
One of the first real knives my father gave me was a Sears Craftsman stockman. The steel was probably 440 but I lost it before I had a chance to dull it (the creeks and woods around my street probably have hundreds of lost knives).
That's what makes companies like Buck, Schrade, Case, and Camillus so great: they offer a GOOD knife (but not the best) for very little money. And most folks don't use their knives for more than cutting string and paper.
A wise man once told me "you've got to know your market".

Jeff Clark · Mar 27, 2001

The Bladeforums crowd of consumers seem to favor the high end steels. I guess that the key factor from your perspective is whether you can sell enough of the high end alloy knives at a high enough premium to make it worth your while. From my perspective ATS-34 and 440C have become common in production knives and you need to step up to distinguish your product.

Hoodoo · Mar 27, 2001

There are a lot of "hot" steels out there and I think that's great. I have knives made of Infi, VG10, and BG42. These are all pretty good steels with Infi maybe being classified as a GREAT steel. But these high-end steels tend to raise the price of a knife, especially Infi and BG42.

I wouldn't mind trying out some of the other newer steels as well. But...the more I use ats34 and 154CM, the more I appreciate them. They are good steel. They take and hold a pretty good edge for a stainless steel. I've been using 154CM a lot lately and find it very useful. I've ordered a Talon in 154CM and although I'd love to have one in talonite, I believe that little fixed blade in 154CM is going to be a dandy. So what you use is your business but there are a lot of guys out there who appreciate being able to buy an affordable custom knife. The popularity of Geno Denning's knives is a good example. He cranks out a lot of ats34 blades and so far, I've never heard of any complaints.

I have heard of some people complaining about ats34. There was one notable letter to the editor in Blade a year or more ago. Someone was complaining about ats34s brittleness. I dunno. I started a thread on this a long time ago. If you do a search of the archives, you might find it. All I know is that I like it more the more I use it. High quality at a reasonable price.

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

Doug Mondt · Mar 27, 2001

Thanks for the input everyone!

I think I am in the right area.

Here's the rub, I price all of my knives about the same $200 - $300 depending on additional features etc. The suppply line I have enables me to do this right now. So it makes no sense to me to grind ATS-34 or 154CM. God willing I will not have to increase my prices any time soon. My goal, I guess, is to get the best knife a man can get into his hands for a reasonable sum.

Tell you one thing though, grinding CPM 420V and 10V all day makes you appriciate grinding ATS-34 once in a while!!!

[This message has been edited by Doug Mondt (edited 03-27-2001).]

The General · Mar 28, 2001

I have to ask... How much are you knives? A 10V Blade is on my 'must get' hit list.

I will only buy a knife in a steel of less than 8a if the blade design and price are right.

I wish CRKT would dump 6m and glass beaded finishes.

I am interested to hear what you make

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Wayne.
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!

OwenM · Mar 28, 2001

Doug,
Do you have a site, or a link to somewhere that we can see some of your knives?

I feel that more makers are going to higher-end steel. Seems like I see more and more small fixed blades and folders in 420V and Talonite, and more makers who normally use "standard" steels, offering premuim steels like the CPMs as options.

Bronco · Mar 28, 2001

Welcome to Bladeforums, Doug.
I'd be one of the last ones around here to try and discourage anyone from making blades with high tech alloy steels.

Discussions of such new (relatively speaking) steels are a major source of interest and enjoyment around here. But in all fairness, you should also be aware that there are a great many patronizing this forum who are diehard fans of the time tested classics such as 5160, 52100, ATS-34 and many others (and rightfully so).

In the final analysis, suffice it to say that there's a great deal of respect reserved here for those makers who have become intimately familiar with the ins and outs of certain specific steels (and their heat treating regimens), and have demonstrated the ability to wring the maximum amount of performance from them. What actual steels those are, is of secondary importance.

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Semper Fi

-Bill

[This message has been edited by Bronco (edited 03-28-2001).]

Ken Cox · Mar 28, 2001

I have just enough ignorance of this subject to feel safe spouting my opinions.

I see specific steels as applicable to specific tasks.
I don't think anyone has come up with the universally perfect steel for all applications.

For example, I have a remarkably cheap Brazilian Chef's knife made out of an unidentified (but cheap!) soft and stainless steel.
Because I steel (straighten) my knives with every use, and use a cutting board, my wife considers this the best knife in the world.

Conversely, my favorite knife, made out of exceptionally well heat-treated A2 (John Greco), will punch a hole through a steel drum, whittle through a hickory axe handle and still give me a good shave, but it wouldn't last a day in the kitchen.

My Spyderco Native, made out of cheap and machineable GIN-1 stainless, cost less than nothing, takes a frighteningly sharp edge with ease and will tolerate any corrosive environment, but it doesn't hold an edge much better than a plastic picnic knife (must try new Native in CPM-whatever steel).

Furthermore, Randall continues to make their non-saltwater use knives out of O-1 because a better steel for the uses intended by Randall's customers simply doesn't exist.
The phrase intended use warrants emphasis.

Having said all that, I have an end-user prejudice for VG-10 and BG-42 for all around corrosion resistance, edge-holding, edge-aggressivenes and resistance to abuse; and D-2 for the medium to smaller blades.

Ease of manufacture and difficulty of heat-treatment (meaning cost) enter into the equation somewhere.
If I made user-knives and heat-treated them myself for a living, I would follow John Greco's example and focus on A2, or, if I had the money to build a vertical salt bath for heat treatment, I would follow Thomas Haslinger's example and focus on BG-42.

High Performance Steel?

I imagine myself a holy warrior, preparing for the end battle.
As the early morning sky lightens from gray to white and then to pale blue, I go to the war chest in my tent.
Lifting the bear skin cover and then the lid of the chest, I take out The Great Sword.
I wipe the protective oils from off it with a cloth made of fine Egyptian cotton, and carefully confirm the impossible sharpness of its double-edges with my fingers.
And then I look deep into the steel.
High performance?

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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom
If one takes care of the means, the end will take care of itself.

Doug Mondt · Mar 28, 2001

I like Ken!
You bring up the real "guts" of what is behind "High Performance Steel" what are you going to be doing with the knife.

As was mentioned as well the old stand-by's can't be left out and have a significant place in the custom market. No one with any sense will argue this. I still grind them all.

As a maker I try to match up steel with customer. I use the steels necessary to meet customer demands. If that is for a pretty folder with a miiror polish to open letters then 440C will do.

Maybe I'm jaded by the bladesmiths. I hear them talking all the time about getting higher performance out of their blades and they get some real impressive performance throug heat treating processes and are limited by the alloy composition they can use! I feel like I need to do the same in my world where I am limited only by what I can get my hands on.

Maybe high performance is not a well suited term for this. But, on the other hand as Ken pointed out if your knife performs every time with out fail YOU consider it to be a high performer!

Once again, thanks to all for the input and interesting thoughts.

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Mondt Custom Knives
For the Word of God is...sharper than any two edged sword.

Bronco · Mar 28, 2001

Doug,
Before King Richard, uh, I mean Ken, drifted off to the battlefields of Jerusalem

, he made a very good point regarding the fact that there's no one steel that can be the best in all blade applications. Forumites tend to have very specific ideas concerning which steels are appropriate for what types of knives. This is despite the fact that folks like Jerry Hossom, Mick Strider, Ross Aki and Paul Bos have a particular penchant for making a mockery of these rules.

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Semper Fi

-Bill

Doug Mondt · Mar 29, 2001

Bill,
I like Ed Fowler and his writings about searching for the perfect blade steel. I know a few smithy's who talk him down for standing on 52100 so strongly. But he does some impressive stuff with it!! Ed also talks a lot about using the right steel and the right knife for the job at hand.

For the general public there are a few steels out there that will suffice. Then there are the psyco's who expect to be able to skin 200 deer 34 Elk and 2 moose and still shave in the morning with the knife. That's when something has to change.

Cliff Stamp · Mar 30, 2001

Doug Mondt:

Then there are the psyco's who expect to be able to skin 200 deer 34 Elk and 2 moose and still shave in the morning with the knife. That's when something has to change.

If you upgrade your steel choice the result will not simply be a longer lasting edge. If you keep the geometry the same, you can gain durability and strength, which means that the knife has a broader scope of work. Or you can alter the geometry to make a knife that cuts better but has the same level of functional durability.

-Cliff

Steve-O · Mar 29, 2001

<smiling as his chuckles subside>

Hi Doug! You'll get used to Cliff....really.

I pretty much have to echo Kens' comments, certain steels for certain jobs, and VG-10 and BG-42 for all around steel...at the moment. There always is someone out at the edge, and for this I am grateful, it extends everyones horizons.

I would love a knife in the CPM or S series, but have hade a hard time finding aomething that matches my budget, so I repeat OwenMs' question...Do you have a site, pics, info on your product?

A bit off the topic...style. If Tim Herman offered me a Sliver...in AUS-6, you better believe I would snap it up. Steel isn't everything, it's only the sharp part.

Welcome home,

Steve-O

[This message has been edited by Steve-O (edited 03-29-2001).]

Gator97 · Mar 29, 2001

Originally posted by Ken Cox:

I see specific steels as applicable to specific tasks.
I don't think anyone has come up with the universally perfect steel for all applications.

Totaly agree, yet there can be certain averges

I think one could on many occasions say that steel A will outperfom steel B in most aspects of conventional knife use

Furthermore, Randall continues to make their non-saltwater use knives out of O-1 because a better steel for the uses intended by Randall's customers simply doesn't exist.
The phrase intended use warrants emphasis.
Can you be a little bit more specific here?
I don't own Randalls, so I'm intersted what is that specific that Randal users intend to do with their knives that makes O1 at RC 54 the the better and irreplacable choice?
Why would it ruin their excitement if they could have a better wear resistance for example?

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zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator

Bucky · Mar 29, 2001

Speaking as a relative newbie here

, I am wondering where M2 steel fits into the equation here with BG-42, VG-10, ATS-34 and the rest.

Thanks for any response(s),

Bucky

Gator97 · Mar 29, 2001

Originally posted by Doug Mondt:

of what is behind "High Performance Steel" what are you going to be doing with the knife.
IMHO the very first thing behind that is the same everlasting quest for perfection, at least - better. Othrewise we'd never even have 1095... It'd be like - does this thing cut? Sure. So, why to bother with research, or anything, sharpen it and that's all to it

IMHO that'd be really boring.

P.S. I don't see for example in what knife task 440A will be a better choice than BG-42.
When you R gonna forget your knife outside for a month or two? That's not really a knife use IMHO.

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zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator

Doug Mondt · Mar 30, 2001

Bucky brings up yet ANOTHER set of alloys the "M" series. M2, M3, M3-1, M4 all real good steel from looking at them chemically.

I am working with my first piece of M3-1. My oldest boy chose it for his knife. Grinds ok and hardens to 66 Rc according to Crucible's guide. Recommended tempering is to 61-63. Seems like it may be a bit brittle.

Any one make a blade out of one of the "M" series?

tallwingedgoat · Mar 30, 2001

Anyone heard of "vasco die"? Here're the specs, sounds promising.

C .82% Cr 7.75% V 2.25% Mo 1.55% Si 1.00% Mn .30%

It's supposed to have better edge holding and stain resistance than D2, and tougher than A2.

[This message has been edited by tallwingedgoat (edited 03-30-2001).]