High polish = poor slicing, specific to certain steels?

Cliff Stamp

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For those people who like polished edges, have you found a difference between various blade materials in how they react to a very high finish? What I am interested in specifically is the degree of polish you can get and the amount of "bite" retained.

-Cliff
 
I must ALWAYS start with my disclaimer: I am not an expert. Moreover, I am poor, and therefore do not have many high-end steels.

Oddly, I can polish AUS6 to a 'grippier' edge that AUS8 or ATS34/ATS55. Same tools: Arkansas Fine, Steel then Strop (red buffing compound). For the ATS34/ATS55, I prefer using the steel as the last step, as the stropping seems to dull and polish, rather than align and polish. The tooth, or microserration, does 'break' on stiffer, more brittle steels, but seems accentuated on some of the 'softer' stuff.

(How do you like the technical jargon to this point!)

I guess it always depends on the task, and also on how the edge is originally worked on the stone. A push sharpen produces great tooth, a slice gives a better edge to polish, a counterclockwise circular patern gives a bit of both (plus a nice-looking patina when done correctly). Then, blade shape comes into play: a Wharncliffe takes the best push sharpen edge while a skinner takes a fantastic slice sharpen edge.

The bottom line, in my humble, possibly naive opinion, is that steel matters to a degree. AUS6 vs AUS8 or ATS34 vs ATS55 vary slightly, one to the other. Now, 'surgical steel' vs the powdered metal stuff, that's a different story. But, as the majority of modern knife users don't rely on their blades for survival, rather for office work and quotidian tasks, the differences in sharpening technique can far outweigh the differences in steel composition. There are high-performance steels for specialised fields that are necessary, but for the average Joe, like me, a mid-range steel and a good technique should do the trick.



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Humbly,

RLR
 
Cliff, I polish all my edges and haven't found a decrease in "bite" as you put it. The steels I've sharpened are AUS-8, GIN-1, ATS-34, 154 CM, CPM 440V, and M-INFI. What I have noticed is that some metals don't seem to show much of an improvement from 600 to 3000 (M-INFI for example). The majority though, I found improved overall cutting performance by polishing.

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"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
 
I've polished ATS34 and ATS55, 440V, and VG10. I have a new SOCOM that came with a polished edge.
The one single thing I noticed about all of them was the distinct decrease in rope slicing ability. Push cuts were awesome, however.
For me, 440V did the best at slicing after polishing, but it still was lackluster in comparison to a toothier edge in slicing.
I used a Lansky ultra-fine stone to polish, and all tests were done on new 1/2" manila rope.
One thing I should mention is the fact that the sample steels all came from knives with diffrerent edge thickness'. I know this affected the outcome of my "tests". Some had thicker grinds at the edge than others. For example, my ATS55 sample was a G-10 Police model with a very thin edge and the 154CM on the MT was considerably thicker.
The 154CM in my new MT SOCOM came with a polished scary sharp edge and it did not do well at slicing the rope either. It did, however, push cut with authority and aplomb, and popped hair off my arm while barely touching the skin.
The conclusion I reached was a tooothier edge is needed if fibrous material is going to be cut. No DUH! Huh?
redface.gif


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Let me tell you about my SIFU!
 
Stropping will align your teeth better if done with no grit, just a small amount of lube (The yellow compound). The fine compounds are not substantially finer than ultrafine stones or hones. However, this is not something that will be effective for you in normal cutting tasks. Your average knife will keep it's normal cutting edge longer if you do not polish it, and keep the wire edge formed at the end of honing. This is a rough edge that is better at slicing than push cutting, but most tasks done on a daily basis with a carry knife are slicing tasks.

Stryver
 
I can back up Misque on his observation that rope slicing ability is weak. In real use they come up weak also. I worked as a Millwright in a paper mill and cut rope almost on a daily basis from light synthetics to one inch manilla. Manilla being worse as you'd expect. Polished edges were weak in carbons and stainless in rope cutting and general rough use. We didn't over sharpen.
 
Hello,

Hi CLiff, myself on my personel Knives like a more TACKY edge than a mirror polished edge,they just seem to have longer cutting life, and require less amount of body mechanics to cut withfor longer periods.

My .02

Allen
 
Some steels don't seem to do their best when stropped with an abrassive impregnated strop. The razor steels 12C27 and AUS-8 seem to work ok and so does 1095.

I think it was BG42 that really didn't like my strop with the green buffing compound.

I've taken to finishing my "smooth" edges with my fine ceramic rods and stropping on canvas, then leather, without any abrasive compounds.
 
Jonathan :

I polish all my edges and haven't found a decrease in "bite" as you put it.

That is interesting. So you are still getting good slicing ability at high grit finishes with those steels?

Misque :

For me, 440V did the best at slicing after polishing

Was this a custom blade?

Allen :

on my personel Knives like a more TACKY edge than a mirror polished edge,they just seem to have longer cutting life, and require less amount of body mechanics to cut withfor longer periods.

Allen, what steels do you find this applies to?

Jeff, whose BG-42 was that?

-Cliff
 
Cliff, yeah I really haven't noticed any loss in slicing ability with an increase in polish. My BM 720 will out slice my full serrated Endura on poly rope. Tell you what, give me a couple of reproducable tests to try and I'll let you know. Maybe I am losing slicing ability but haven't been doing the kinds of tests that would make it evident.

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"Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n"
John Milton
There are only two types of people; those who understand this, and those who think they do.
 
Hello,

Cliff i find that the toothier edge works best in the Non-Stain Resistant steels ,like
5160, 01, 1095, 52100 ect.ect.. im not sure why but they seem to have twice the performance with a toothier edge than they do with a polished edge , my thought is that
with the toothier edge the bite of the blade is instant, and doesnt require as much movement to initiate the cut as does a Mirror polished edge.

I have made two COMBAT PATROL BOWIES one with a polished edge and one with a Tacky edge
and in all tests the TACKY edge won out.

In fact the tacky edge required less blows
to sever a 2x10 than did the mirror polished edge, seemed to have a deeper Bite in the wood also. And in Slicing on Meat products,
ie.... elk,deer,bear there was no comparison,the tacky edge won hands down!!

Regards,,, Allen Blade

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Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" It is Always Better to learn The RIGHT Way, Than to Continue Doing it WRONG "

My Custom Knives :
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Jonathan, basically anything that does a draw cut should immediately show how much bite the blade has. If you wanted to measure it you could put a piece of rope under tension horizontally and draw the blade across it and measure the max deflection of the rope. The smoother the blade the more force you will have to exert vertically and thus the deflection will increase.

Allen, how are you making the tacky and polished edges? What are you using to sharpen the blades?

-Cliff
 
Cliff, What do you mean by "high polish" on an edge. Do you mean honed on the finest ceramic or Arkansas stone? Do you mean stropped with an abrasive impregnated strop? Do you mean buffed? Do you mean any/all of the above--just not finished with something coarser than a fine diamond plate?

As a standard test I would think poly rope would be pretty good. Pick a standard brand and thickness of truck rope and a standard length. You need a very stable frame to support the rope and a long length of rope if you are going to use rope deflection as a measure of force. Alternately you need to use something like a large fish pull-scale to measure the force.
 
Jeff, I left out the defination of polished as I had another motive in starting this thread. I also wanted to see people discuss this very issue.

If I had to define it, I would say polished is when you take the finish down to the grain size of the steel.

-Cliff
 
After reading through this thread last night, I did a little test. I took several different knives which included ATS34, 440V, AUS8, ATS55, CarbonV, and Modified Infi. They all had very polished edges and would shave like a straight razor. I then proceeded to slice some fiberglass banding from the box my new dust collector came in. After each knife was dulled until it got difficult to slice the banding, I resharpened each knife on a diamond V-type sharpener with stropping on the thigh of my old warn out synthetic material (probably a polyester) trousers. This gave a very toothy edge to each knife. I repeated the slicing of the fiberglass banding with each knife and got about twice as many slices before it got difficult to slice. The Modified Infi came out on top and the AUS8 came out last in this little impromptu test. I realize that this test was in no way a rigorous scientific experiment, however I think it may lead to more experimentation on my part. If anything, it may lead to less sharpening time on my rough use knives.


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John

[This message has been edited by ICEMAN (edited 03-03-2000).]
 
Cliff,
By a polished edge, do you mean only the cutting edge or do you mean the the whole bevel?
Also, how can I tell when the grain size is the same as the grain size of the steel? Will it be as shiney\smooth as the steel?

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Shawn R Sullivan
 
Shawn, just the cutting edge. As for the grain size you are not going to be able to see this visually. However as you proceed to higher grits you will cross a point at which the polishing doesn't seem to improve the edge.

John, those are interesting results. If you do any further work along those lines I would appreciate seeing it.

-Cliff
 
I've found that polishing an edge can hurt the blade's ability to cut. I use a Lansky kit because it's foolproof (and there is some fool in all of us.) After finishing with the white ceramic stone, I used to strop the edge with a pull stroke using the suede side of goatskin leather that was glued to a small board. You could see your teeth reflected in the edge and the blades would slice newsprint held edge on with a very clean cut.

After a while I got lazy and started quitting after the medium stone. I discovered the knives cut just as well (perhaps a little more ragged on newsprint) but that the edges lasted longer. On some materials the knives cut better. Someone above mentioned micro serrations? Makes sense since dull serrated blades cut better than dull plain edge blades.

The reason this comes to mind is that I got really lazy and bought a set of paper wheels for a bench grinder about a year ago to work on kitchen knives and cheap carry knives. The wheel impregnated with polishing compound gives me a polished edge that reminds me of that goatskin. My knives get really sharp, don't get me wrong, and it only takes a few seconds. But the edges don't last as long as they did when I used the Lansky and quit on the medium stone.

Back in my bookbinding days, we used to use wet/dry 360 or 420 grit paper glued to a board and then strop lightly with the goatskin just to make sure the wire edge was gone. All the knives (and chisels) were chisel ground and this arrangement allowed us to work both sides of the blade very quickly. I still use this method with my woodworking chisels after I've ground the bevel. I'll bet the grit is pretty similar to the medium Lansky stone.

I don't polish edges any more (unless I'm using the paper wheel setup which basically requires it.)

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Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com
 
Sorry Cliff, I missed one of your questions. The BG42 that I've got is in a couple Buck Master Series blades. One is a small folder and the other is a Vanguard model hunting knife.

 
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