High Speed Steel Puukko

me2

Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
5,097
For a while now I've been trying to put a handle on a convex puukko blade I made. I finally found a way and thus began testing the knife.

First a quick description. The blade is made from a mechanical hacksaw blade I recieved from Sodak here on BF. I believe these are M2 from Dave MacDonald. They are not soft back or bi-metal. The tooth and spine sides react the same way to a file; just scratched paint. I believe Alvin Johnson on rec.knives had one tested for hardness and got a 64 to 65, which agrees with the hardness for the "standard" heat treated condition of M2 in my Smith's Engineering Alloys textbook. The blade is 5 inches long, 7/8 inch wide, 1/16 inch thick with a clip point that I'll probably sharpen the back of at some point, but not yet. The blade is basically a very small machete, with about a 10 degree convex edge ground on the tooth side with no other primary grind. A small, barely visible microbevel was applied using the 20 degree slots on the sharpmaker, followed by stropping on 0.3 micron honing film from the local woodworking shop. This produced an edge that would shave nearly 1/4 inch above the skin of my arm. This same kind of edge can also be produced using a leather belt on a belt sander after 24, 80, 120, and 320 grit belts. The handle is cherry wood, slotted down the back and the 1/2 inch wide, 4 inch long tang epoxied into the slot. The hardest part was finding a saw that cut the same thickness as the blade.

Now for the testing. First, I dropped the blade point first from head height onto concrete. The tip survived and was resharpened with the Sharpmaker and strop. Given the hardness, I actually expected the thing to shatter, but its very light.

After resharpening, I tried some cutting tests. First was a piece of typing paper folded in half lengthwise twice and stood on end. The knive cut this pretty easy. I tried the same cut with some construction paper and the bottom half of the paper was left standing on the table. After that, I tried an empty 24 oz soda bottle. The knife cut the bottle in two. A near perfect swing is needed to get 2 pieces. The blade length is short enough that I have trouble getting all the way through the bottle without being very careful.

Next was some twisting cuts into and out of pine, then cherry wood. The blade was pushed into the wood the full depth of the edge bevel, and twisted out. No chipping or dulling. Next the point was given the same treatment. No damage to the point.

The blade was chopped into the edge of the opening of a 2 liter soda bottle. No chipping occurred from the impact with the hard plastic. Again, this is a very light knife, and really has almost no chopping ability, so the impacts were not very hard.

Next some wire bread ties were cut, using the Sharpmaker case as a cutting board. Again, no chipping. Some shavings were cut from an unhardened piece of 1095. Some damage to the edge happened here, the depth of the microbevel, which is less than 1/64 inch wide. The blade was sharpened again with the Sharpmaker and strop, so the damage was not extensive. Its difficult to tell if the edge rolled or chipped.

Next, the knive was held in one hand and batoned into a 1x10 pine board using a 4 lb hammer. The corners of the spine were rounded, but it was very slight. Again, it was difficult to tell if the corners were chipping or denting/rolling. The spine also appear to leave marks in the face of the hammer. I didnt check before I started, but there were 3 or 4 straight lines in the hammer face when I finished.

The final test so far was to dig a hole in the 1x10 using the tip. This was done with no damage to the blade, but the handle showed some separation from the blade at the blade/handle shoulder. The separation was barely noticable, and does not appear to be progressing. This is just a failure of the epoxy bond during the prying/twisting used to dig the hole in the wood. Sandblasting the blade prior to putting the slotted handle on would probably stop this, but I have no way to do so. Putting some pins or rivets in would stop handle worries as well, but I havent been able to make holes in the tang.

The knife is currently serving kitchen duty. The handle needs a new coat of oil and polyurethane. The edge bevel will darken slightly and turn a very light orange if left wet or used on fruit, but the color comes off with a good scrub with a Scotchbrite sponge. The unground portion of the blade has had no rust issues. I left it the flat gray color that remained after I wire brushed the paint off. So far a good knife for the cost of 4 sanding belts ($7) and about an hour to slack belt sharpen an edge onto what is basically a very hard piece of sheet metal. Thanks to Sodak for the material. I have a 1/8 inch thick saw blade left, but I dont think my Harbor Freight 1x30 sander is ready for that. Neither is my lower back, since it would take about 3 hours to grind given the time this one took.
 
Great review. I have a few of those blades that Sodak gave me and I'm just trying to figure out how the heck I'm going to make them into a knife. That is some seriously hard stuff, and it is good to see that it performs so well.

Mike
 
Its very hard stuff. I profiled the blade by using a cut off wheel on a dremel to score the lines, then snapped off the pieces in a vice. I need to do some edge holding tests, which is the reason for the Sharpmaker microbevel. That allows comparison to my other knives without having to take so long to thin them down. The edge I can get on this will consistently give 12 to 20 grams on thread cutting tests on a gram scale. These should not be compared to others tests, since I think I'm using different thread than the others here that push cut thread on a scale.
 
It is a booger to grind isn't it? But it really holds an edge once you get a knife out of it! But you have to have the patience of Job to work it! :D I knew this would be difficult when I asked a couple of makers if I sent them the blank would they grind it out for me. They all kept referring me to other makers. Oh, <insert name here>, he'd do a good job for you... :D

I used an angle grinder to cut the approximate shape out that I wanted, with a dunk bucket handy. This stuff doesn't lose it's temper very quickly, but still...

I think the fastest way to profile will be with an angle grinder. The belts are just too slow for me, except for maybe the final final finish work. I have a couple that were sent to me that are full convex by slack belt, that must have been the work of 3 lifetimes...

I'm anxious to see how it holds up in the kitchen! Mine have been great so far, and *really* hold an edge!
 
Is there anyplace that sells these pieces of full hard M2 steel to use as blade blanks? It sounds like an interesting challenge.

I made a small crude tool box knife from a piece of standard bimetal hacksaw blade but I am not real impressed with it's edgeholding. It was fairly hard to grind the edge on with the 1x30 but really not worth the effort for the outcome using that particular blade material.

Alex
 
Dave MacDonald used to sell them in bundles for very good prices, but I heard he had a car accident, so I dont know if he still sells them or not. I've heard the Starrett Red Stripe blades are fully hardened, but have not tried one to see. Most bimetal blades I've seen have the teeth cut through the edge wire into the soft portion of the blade. Some may not. Remove the paint and try a macro etch to see how far it goes.
 
You can find them on Google, but they are pricey, like $30 a blade. If you can get the big ones, 2 ft. by 2 inches by 0.1 in thick, you can make 4 med. sized blades out of it. I've tried reaching David with no success.
 
After about 2 weeks of kitchen duty, I have found a weak point in the knife. The puukko style blade is too thick for cutting things like apples. I cut up an apple for my son this week and found that the knife would crack the apple ahead of the cut, causing thin sheets of apple to appear wherever the cut and the crack didnt follow the same path. This seems to be an issue of blade shape rather than steel. It might be solved by flat grinding the edge at 7 degrees or so rather than the 10ish degree convex bevel thats on it now. Cutting effort was not that high, except compared to my Food Network damascus blade, which is about 1 1/4" wide and full flat ground from a 1/16 inch spine. That thing goes through apples without slowing, but dulls much quicker than the M2.
 
I've profiled on a 6 bench grinder and then ground the blade and edges in with my HF 1x30. It really helps to have the coarseest belt you can get to grind these hacksaw blades. I think mine are 36 grit and putting a blade grind on wasn't that bad to do. I put a very shallow full convex grind that is almost flat and very thin. These blades are pretty darn thin already. You will go through a few belts but once you get a knife out of these hacksaw blades they are very good knives. I'd love to find someone that makes a slipjoint out of hard steel like this.
 
I've profiled on a 6 bench grinder and then ground the blade and edges in with my HF 1x30. It really helps to have the coarseest belt you can get to grind these hacksaw blades. I think mine are 36 grit and putting a blade grind on wasn't that bad to do. I put a very shallow full convex grind that is almost flat and very thin. These blades are pretty darn thin already. You will go through a few belts but once you get a knife out of these hacksaw blades they are very good knives. I'd love to find someone that makes a slipjoint out of hard steel like this.

Maybe I should get myself that HF 1"x42" belt sander and use my 6" grinder and just go for it on one of these blades. I know the end result will be excellent, it just seems overwhelming trying to grind on all hard M2 for my first try at knife making.

Mike
 
1/16" spine with a 10 degree convex edge took about an hour to go through 24, 120, 180, and 320 grit belts. I've got 3 more 24 grits belts for trying the 0.1" blade in the garage. I'm thinking a Santoku with a chisel ground half inch wide bevel on a 7 inch blade, but who knows. 3 belts may not be enough.
 
Maybe I should get myself that HF 1"x42" belt sander and use my 6" grinder and just go for it on one of these blades. I know the end result will be excellent, it just seems overwhelming trying to grind on all hard M2 for my first try at knife making.

Mike

I made a Loveless copy from one. The good news is that you won't ruin your work with one careless slip---you have to really be deliberate to grind much material off.

I rough profiled mine on a bench wheel grinder rather that on a belt sander. It seemed to speed up the process quite a bit. The end result wasn't all that pretty (I'm a talentless hack) but it holds an edge like nobody's business!
 
Yup I agree and think useing this hard steel to make a first knife is a benefit, because nothing happens real quick. One slip just isn't going to do much. I went slow and I still had my first knife done in an afternoon.
 
Do any of you guys have a source for this blade steel? I haven't had any luck locating any so far.

Alex
 
Thank you for the link Sodak. At least I know exactly what to look for now with the local industrial suppliers.

I will also check with some local machine shops to see if they use these type blades and what they do with them once dull. For some reason I was thinking you guys were using pieces of band saw type blades.
 
Ok, so its not a puukko anymore. The main bevel was ground convex at ~10 degrees/side, and I have added a 17/side secondary bevel and a 20/side microbevel from the Sharpmaker, finishing with stropping on the 0.3 micron lapping film. This was just a quick way to get a good edge, and at some point I'll go back and redo the main convex bevel. However, the 20/side Sharpmaker bevels make comparisons to my other knives easy.

On with the testing. My standard edge holding test is to cut cardboard with the same 1.5 or so inches of blade until its too dull to cut a plastic grocery bag. This works well for me, and the bags can be found by anyone to do comparative tests. When a blade stops cutting the bag, its far from dull. At this point blades usually still shave arm hair. I dont do long term cutting tests, since I resharpen or touch up when shaving ability is lost or just before. I tested my cheap kitchen knives this way. Can someone search that thread out? I didnt write any results down, but the best of the bunch didnt make it to 100 inches of cardboard if I remember right.

This M2 is amazing. I've cut about 250 inches of cardboard with the same 1.5 inches of blade and this section will still catch hair above the skin and easily slice a plastic bag. I will be making comparisons to my Cara Cara, Delica, and 154CM Griptilian. This will give an idea of relative performance, since I realize not all cardboard is the same and I may have just had a very gritty batch when testing the kitchen knives. The poorest of the kitchen knives would only make about 10-15 cuts before the bag couldnt be sliced, IMS. I would guess the M2 will be ahead of the other knives mentioned. If not, I got some real winners for EDC.
 
OK, the testing for edge holding is done. The M2 made it to about 550 inches before failing to cut the plastic bag. It will still shave hair easily, though not above the skin. Next up is a RADA kitchen knife. If it makes it past 100 I'll be shocked. Then on to my Delica, which will be replacing the Cara Cara. By then I'll probably be out of cardboard and plastic bags.
 
Interesting! I like your methodology, testing is a lot more work than people think! Thanks for doing this!
 
By now you all should have learned that I cant follow my own directions. I jumped to a Griptillian in 154CM to test it. 400 cuts was the stopping point before failing to cut the plastic bag. It still shaves hair, but the bags just get pushed around and torn. So M2 outlasts 154CM from Benchmade by a pretty good margin. I hesitate to say 20 - 25% because my tests aren't that accurate, but its noticable for fine cutting. The Griptillian was sharpened differntly, but to the same hair popping above the skin edge. 220 grit belt to leather belt with white compound on the trusty HF 1 x 30 sander, edge angle of just under 20 degrees, allowing easy touch ups on the Sharpmaker. I generally feel this type of sharpening lasts longer than off the Sharpmaker, but I have no proof other than the good edge my Vapor would keep after belt sharpening. Sometimes as much as a couple months with just a free hand touch up on the white Sharpmaker stones.

One day, I'll take a Spyderco or Benchmade or Byrd and just cut cardboard until the thing stops cutting printer paper. I imagine it would literally take a day of cutting to get to this point when starting from a stropped or sander finished edge. The testing of this knife has led me to 2 conclusions. I no longer consider batoning of fixed blades in wood abuse, and cardboard doesnt dull knives as fast as most people believe. The Griptillian, as the lesser of the two tested, still cut about 10 yards of cardboard before failing the plastic bag sharpness test. The M2 cut about 15 yards. My lowly Vapor in AUS-6 cut nearly 20 yards before it quit shaving hair, but it would still cut printer paper. Admittedly that was different cardboard and a different stopping point, so dont compare the Vapor results to the Griptillian or M2. I really need to do the RADA Santoku again before completely passing judgement, but that sounds like a lot of cardboard to me.
 
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